POPLA or not? Parking ticket in Didcot Sainsbury's

Tonka_Girl

Hi everyone,
I received a parking ticket last week after parking at Sainsbury's in Didcot (I've never been there before) and doing a quick £30 shop for dinner. I returned to my car to find a parking ticket from 'Senator Parking Services' for not having displayed a free 'pay and display' ticket (free parking for 2 hours). I had naively assumed I could park in a Sainsbury's car park and shop in a Sainsbury's store as normal, and had not seen any of the signs telling me otherwise. Silly me!!
According to the DfT'S 2012 guidance, "Charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine preestimate of loss. This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken" (p.23). My argument, therefore, is that by parking for 20 minutes and spending £30 in a shop, when it is free to park for two hours, neither the company who own the Sainsbury's car park and site (called Hammerson), nor Senator Services, have experienced any loss through me parking there.
I have appealed to Senator, who have of course turned me down. I know I could now appeal to POPLA, but judging by their limited list of appeal grounds, they will not find in my favour. (Despite the fact that the DtF guidance says "POPLA is able to consider whether a landholder who is a member of an appropriate ATA has behaved reasonably. This includes whether any parking charges are based on a genuine pre-estimate of loss." (p. 24)
So, my question is if I don't appeal to POPLA, am I weakening my case if Senator Security were eventually to pursue me to the Small Claims Court?!
I'm furious at the injustice, yet sorely tempted to pay the £25 and get on with my life...

spacey2012

Ignore them, but put all the shopping in bags and take it back, tell them you need the money to pay the fake parking ticket they gave you.

ManxRed

Senator won't do court.

Did they actually give you a POPLA code?

We have seen one relatively cast iron point to use in POPLA appeals.

State that you do not believe that Senator's contract with the landowner confers sufficient proprietary rights over the land in question for them to offer parking and to form contracts with drivers. Hence you cannot possibly breach a contract which they didn't have any right to form in the first place. Demand to see the contract terms between them and the landowner.

Plus all the other stuff about the fact that the charge does not represent their actual losses and so on.

Even if POPLA reject your appeal, this is not binding on you. You can happily continue to ignore any demands from Senator following such a decision.

As I say, they really won't want to do court.

henauvin

I would just ignore Senator but please complain strongly to Sainsbury. The more complaints they get, the more they will recognise cunsumer opinion on these companies and maybe think twice before renewing contracts.

Tonka_Girl

Thanks everyone!
ManxRed - Senator sent me a paper copy of a POPLA appeal form, with the 'Verification Code' filled-in at the bottom. Is that the same as a POPLA code? Do I ask POPLA to see the contract terms between Senator and the landowner?
henauvin - I am in the process of writing an irate letter to Sainsbury's....!
It's the last line of Senator's letter that really grates - 'Thanking you in anticipation of your full co-operation'. Eugh!!

peter_the_piper

It's the last line of Senator's letter that really grates - 'Thanking you in anticipation of your full co-operation'. Eugh!!

You may well be cooperating by going to popla and costing them £32 .

Guys_Dad

ManxRed wrote: »

We have seen one relatively cast iron point to use in POPLA appeals.

State that you do not believe that Senator's contract with the landowner confers sufficient proprietary rights over the land in question for them to offer parking and to form contracts with drivers. Hence you cannot possibly breach a contract which they didn't have any right to form in the first place. Demand to see the contract terms between them and the landowner.

I agree 100% with this advice. From reports on here, POPLA have tended to uphold the PPCs' cases except when they are put on the spot to show a contract that confers upon them the relevant authority. Courts go further - they demand that the contract gives the PPC the " right to issue proceedings". That is the key.

Some contracts have woolly wording that give PPCs the right to issue tickets and, regrettably, POPLA seem to have taken that to mean that the PPC has the right to collect PCN charges.

Technically, of course, going to POPLA is not the same thing as issuing proceedings in a court. I don't think POPLA actually publish details of contracts and the most recent case on here where POPLA upheld a PPC's claim, only reference to a valid contract was made as the reason for upholding the claim, but no details were shown.

ManxRed says Senator don't do court, so after costing them £30 at POPLA, just ignore them, but do, in the meantime, ask them for proof that they have any right to put a private penalty charge on you.

peter_the_piper

I think that Popla have said they will decide on the law regarding the 4 reasons for appealing. If driver does not say that they should not have been given a ticket cos hmrc v Vcs then they have to decide on the other 3, if you see what I mean. Unless you ask the correct quesation you get the wrong answer.

Coupon-mad

Tonka_Girl wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I received a parking ticket last week after parking at Sainsbury's in Didcot...I have appealed to Senator, who have of course turned me down. I know I could now appeal to POPLA, but judging by their limited list of appeal grounds, they will not find in my favour.

Of course you can appeal to POPLA! Another newbie made the same assumption last week in this thread where we replied in a similar way:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/59543357#Comment_59543357

Tick 'I am not liable to pay the parking charge' of course.

Here's a thread discussing a recent success at POPLA and mulronie came up with some good appeal wording, IMHO, in post #27:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4447137

A strong appeal about the PPC scammer not having possessory title or rights of occupation in the car park, citing VCS -v- HMRC (which is linked under VCS on the'PPC Letter Chains' sticky thread here on this forum) seems very difficult for POPLA to reject. The case law is recent and tells it like it is, even says 'their signs don't help them' and that their limited contract to 'be there in the car park' doesn't help them either (didn't help VCS!). Without proprietary ownership, lease, etc., the PPC has no ability to offer parking spaces, no ability to form a contract with a driver, and no trespass/loss possibility either.

Tonka_Girl wrote: »

I'm furious at the injustice, yet sorely tempted to pay the £25 and get on with my life...

And what did the Sainsbury's Store Manager say when you complained? Many many times we see this and the Store Manager gets the fake PCN cancelled - and even if he/she is useless, at lease you will have COMPLAINED to the hand that feeds the PPC. Without agreement from Sainsburys these scammers would not be able to carry out their little protection racket.

If not local then do a written complaint to the CEO of Sainsburys at Head Office. Aim your fury at the Organ Grinder, not the monkey!

Ozne

Just to say I had one of these in Didcot about a year ago. I ignored everything and received a letter chain from the usual suspects, Debt Recovery Plus and Zenith, 6 or 7 letters in all. They carried on until the summer but I never responded at all, and they gave up. Think the last letter came in July.

I never bothered to complain to Sainsburys. This car park serves the Orchard Centre shopping area and not just Sainsburys.