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Subletting in secret? LL won't let me claim Housing Benefit
Zorz_2
Posts: 324 Forumite
Note to moderators: this is mostly a housing issue, please do not move it to the benefits board.
I moved into a bedroom in a house here in London last December. There were some issues with it, but because I needed a proper place to stay (the reason is in my other long winded thread, still ongoing), I decided to take it since the fundamental things were OK (price, location, distance from work, amenities, etc). However, the man who placed the ad described himself as an "agent". But after I had already paid the deposit and when it was time to pay the 1st month's rent, sign and move in, I found out that he was the "landlord".
And actually, the first time we were supposed to sign, he didn't bring any contracts with him, he expected to hand him the cash in hand! I refused and asked for some proper paperwork, so we met again the next day and this time he brought a simple "Houseshare agreement" with him as the named tenant and me as a "sharer" (lodger basically). Turns out that he isn't the landlord but he rents the place and sublets it.
Since he doesn't actually live here (despite what the paper says), technically I am not a lodger but a tenant. The utility bills do come here at his name, but no bank statements so far. I do not have his actual address, only a phone number (mobile) and a bank account.
Now, I managed to lose my job in last month's high street slaughter, but I was at least fortunate to find another one (I'm starting soon). In the meantime, I applied for housing benefit. I submitted all the required documents, but the council also requested a document from the head-landlord as evidence that he is aware of this arrangement (me, subletting from his tenant). When I asked this from the person from whom I rent (my "landlord"), he flatly refused.
To be honest, before I moved in, he said that he didn't want benefit claimants living in the house. I had already paid the deposit by that time, plus I didn't expect to be in a position to need to claim myself. However, he not only refused but became a bit agitated, saying that he didn't want that kind of people living in the house and didn't want the trouble or "the address to be associated with poor people", etc.
This might not be only the usual discrimination on benefits claimants but combined with the rest of the situation, I became suspicious. Is he subletting the house without the consent of the actual owner? So, I got the real landlord's details from Land Registry, who lives elsewhere in England.
What I am thinking now, is should I contact the owner? The amount of HB I expect to get is not huge, I calculated around £200-240 for the time I was unemployed and barely £10 a week from now on (the new job is unfortunately part-time, but it's better than nothing). I have already written a letter to the head landlord, but I am worried that if I send it, I may rattle the hornet's nest, at a time when I need stability.
I have a lot more beef with my immediate landlord. Before I moved in, I agreed on the condition that he would have the room cleaned before. Not only he didn't do that (when I cleaned, I found thrown food and receipts dating back to 2009!), but the bed was infested with bed bugs (he eventually replaced it). I know that basically I have no recourse now for this but it !!!!ed me off and shows what kind of person he is. On top of that, he hasn't protected my deposit!
I can still pay the rent easily without the HB, and I don't intent to stay in benefits for long. I want to work more hours, earn a lot more and save for my future. In the meantime though, I plan to claim while my income is still low. In the past I found myself in the weird position that because I did not claim any benefits previously, when I had a problem and actually needed help, it wasn't available to me ...because I didn't get benefits previously! And frankly, £10/week won't convert me from a good tenant to a scrounger. I work, I pay my taxes, I actually overpaid taxes so far this year (they screwed my tax code). Certainly I don't accept that kind of BS from a liar who fails to meet his obligations!
My problem though, is that I can't move again this soon, I have already other problems I need to resolve first and the fact that I appear as a lodger (even though I am a tenant) means that I have little security here, if my LL decides to turn nasty.
So what should I do? Should I just write to the head landlord asking "this looks suspicious, are you OK with it?" and how do I prove that my immediate LL doesn't live here and find his actual address?
I moved into a bedroom in a house here in London last December. There were some issues with it, but because I needed a proper place to stay (the reason is in my other long winded thread, still ongoing), I decided to take it since the fundamental things were OK (price, location, distance from work, amenities, etc). However, the man who placed the ad described himself as an "agent". But after I had already paid the deposit and when it was time to pay the 1st month's rent, sign and move in, I found out that he was the "landlord".
And actually, the first time we were supposed to sign, he didn't bring any contracts with him, he expected to hand him the cash in hand! I refused and asked for some proper paperwork, so we met again the next day and this time he brought a simple "Houseshare agreement" with him as the named tenant and me as a "sharer" (lodger basically). Turns out that he isn't the landlord but he rents the place and sublets it.
Since he doesn't actually live here (despite what the paper says), technically I am not a lodger but a tenant. The utility bills do come here at his name, but no bank statements so far. I do not have his actual address, only a phone number (mobile) and a bank account.
Now, I managed to lose my job in last month's high street slaughter, but I was at least fortunate to find another one (I'm starting soon). In the meantime, I applied for housing benefit. I submitted all the required documents, but the council also requested a document from the head-landlord as evidence that he is aware of this arrangement (me, subletting from his tenant). When I asked this from the person from whom I rent (my "landlord"), he flatly refused.
To be honest, before I moved in, he said that he didn't want benefit claimants living in the house. I had already paid the deposit by that time, plus I didn't expect to be in a position to need to claim myself. However, he not only refused but became a bit agitated, saying that he didn't want that kind of people living in the house and didn't want the trouble or "the address to be associated with poor people", etc.
This might not be only the usual discrimination on benefits claimants but combined with the rest of the situation, I became suspicious. Is he subletting the house without the consent of the actual owner? So, I got the real landlord's details from Land Registry, who lives elsewhere in England.
What I am thinking now, is should I contact the owner? The amount of HB I expect to get is not huge, I calculated around £200-240 for the time I was unemployed and barely £10 a week from now on (the new job is unfortunately part-time, but it's better than nothing). I have already written a letter to the head landlord, but I am worried that if I send it, I may rattle the hornet's nest, at a time when I need stability.
I have a lot more beef with my immediate landlord. Before I moved in, I agreed on the condition that he would have the room cleaned before. Not only he didn't do that (when I cleaned, I found thrown food and receipts dating back to 2009!), but the bed was infested with bed bugs (he eventually replaced it). I know that basically I have no recourse now for this but it !!!!ed me off and shows what kind of person he is. On top of that, he hasn't protected my deposit!
I can still pay the rent easily without the HB, and I don't intent to stay in benefits for long. I want to work more hours, earn a lot more and save for my future. In the meantime though, I plan to claim while my income is still low. In the past I found myself in the weird position that because I did not claim any benefits previously, when I had a problem and actually needed help, it wasn't available to me ...because I didn't get benefits previously! And frankly, £10/week won't convert me from a good tenant to a scrounger. I work, I pay my taxes, I actually overpaid taxes so far this year (they screwed my tax code). Certainly I don't accept that kind of BS from a liar who fails to meet his obligations!
My problem though, is that I can't move again this soon, I have already other problems I need to resolve first and the fact that I appear as a lodger (even though I am a tenant) means that I have little security here, if my LL decides to turn nasty.
So what should I do? Should I just write to the head landlord asking "this looks suspicious, are you OK with it?" and how do I prove that my immediate LL doesn't live here and find his actual address?
You wanna hear about my new obsession?
I'm riding high upon a deep recession...
I'm riding high upon a deep recession...
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Comments
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What do you want to achieve? Frankly, it sounds like a place to move out of. However
* do you want to stay long term?
* do you want to claim HB?
* do you want to 'formalise' your tenancy?
* do you want to get out, at a time of your choosing, and get back any deposit you've paid?
* do you want to sc**w him over as he's a nitwit?
* ?????
You could:
* report him to the property owner (£3 to Land Registry here)
* report him to HMRC for tax fraud..?
* stop paying rent till he gives you an address (Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 section 48)
* change the locks to protect yourself
* tell him you are a tenant, as he does not live there and you have 'exclusive occupation' and that's why he must give you an address and why you've changed the lock
* move out
* do nothing
* insist he protects your deposit, or threaten him with court and 3 times penalty
Seems to me clear that he is subletting without the owners knowledge/permission, and that therefore you are in a position toask what you want from him, by subtle or not subtle hints that you know who/where the owner is.
But stabilty and a quiet life don't follow from stirring up hornets' nests!0 -
The fact you were given a houseshare agreement from your landlord who wasn't actually living in the property was a massive clue that things were not right here. He was clearly trying to prevent giving you tenant's rights by calling you a lodger and not giving you an AST. However if you are living at the property and your landlord doesn't live there, then no matter what your paperwork states you are a tenant with rights.
It's tricky as it's almost certain the head landlord knows nothing about you and may be very unhappy to find out their tenant has sublet the property. They may even evict you and your landlord.
I'm suprised the council care about the head landlord as I would have thought it only mattered who you had a contract with. Have they confirmed they would reject your claim without a letter from the head landlord?Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!0 -
* do you want to stay long term?
* do you want to claim HB?
* do you want to 'formalise' your tenancy?
* do you want to get out, at a time of your choosing, and get back any deposit you've paid?
* do you want to sc**w him over as he's a nitwit?
* ?????
1) At least for a few months.
2) Preferably yes, but since it's not a lot of money anyway I could skip it if that gave me peace of mind.
3) I want some security, I'll elaborate on this below.
4) Of course, but I don't mind mind being formal on my behalf (give 1 period's notice, etc).
5) After his insults yesterday? most certainly!Seems to me clear that he is subletting without the owners knowledge/permission, and that therefore you are in a position toask what you want from him, by subtle or not subtle hints that you know who/where the owner is.
But stabilty and a quiet life don't follow from stirring up hornets' nests!The fact you were given a houseshare agreement from your landlord who wasn't actually living in the property was a massive clue that things were not right here. He was clearly trying to prevent giving you tenant's rights by calling you a lodger and not giving you an AST. However if you are living at the property and your landlord doesn't live there, then no matter what your paperwork states you are a tenant with rights.
You are both right. Unfortunately I realised this when it was already too late. Since I have a bigger fish to fry right now, it seems more prudent to stay quiet for the moment, continue to pay normally and hit him when I'm about to move (report to HMRC, to the owner and remind him about the non protected deposit).
The bigger problem at the moment here is twofold. I know for a fact that I am a tenant and not a lodger, but all the paperwork say otherwise. I have already a horrible experience with another landlord. Even though at the time I had a proper tenancy, this didn't stop him from literally throwing me out. The police took his side and the council (different one) didn't bat an eyelid so far, so I don't trust them. He could easily pretend to live here and thus a) get away with the deposit b) evict me in short notice.
The other thing is that if the actual owner is unaware of the situation and doesn't like if he finds out, I don't think we would have any rights in this case.I'm suprised the council care about the head landlord as I would have thought it only mattered who you had a contract with. Have they confirmed they would reject your claim without a letter from the head landlord?
Yes, they did wrote to me and asked for evidence that the head landlord is aware of this arrangement. I told them that I do have proof that I live there (letters addressed to me and the "sharing agreement"), proof that I paid my rent (bank statement) but not what they were asking.
They said that before they start giving money they had to have proof that the tenancy is a legitimate one. I do understand where they're coming from, and definitely they should hunt down and stop subletting council homes or HA homes.This though, is a private property and the whole thing is a bit unfair because it's beyond my control.You wanna hear about my new obsession?
I'm riding high upon a deep recession...0 -
Surely, you are just a lodger, and have no legal rights, hence he can ask you to leave with no notice?0
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10-1 the OP is backon here in a few weeks saying that this LL has put them out on the street.They deem him their worst enemy who tells them the truth. -- Plato0
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this was dodgy from the first minute.
I don't understand how someone "looking for stability" agreed to this. It is about the most unstable deal i've heard of!
OP, if you want to stay, change the locks. But start looking for a new place because ...10-1 the OP is backon here in a few weeks saying that this LL has put them out on the street.0 -
19lottie82 wrote: »Surely, you are just a lodger, and have no legal rights, hence he can ask you to leave with no notice?
The OP says that the LL does not in fact live in the house, but is just trying to make it look as though he does - and to circumvent the tenancy rules - by using documentation headed 'houseshare' agreement. However, irrespective of what the documentation says, as the LL is not living there, then the OP is indeed in a tenancy.0 -
The OP says that the LL does not in fact live in the house, but is just trying to make it look as though he does - and to circumvent the tenancy rules - by using documentation headed 'houseshare' agreement. However, irrespective of what the documentation says, as the LL is not living there, then the OP is indeed in a tenancy.
Precisely, he is a non resident landlord despite what what he is trying to appear.
Meanwhile, I've had an interesting discussion with one of the housemates, who was told by our "landlord" about what happened and who in turn tried to reassure me that everything is ok. According to them, the head-landlord of course knows about the situation and is ok with everything. As he (supposedly) lives abroad, he has an "oral" agreement with my immediate "landlord" to run the property. The only disadvantage of that is that "nobody can claim HB at this address" as a result. Which would complicate things anyway for the landlord because "if the rent comes from HB, then it gets taxed at a different, special bracket".
Both of these statements are horse manure of course, since the source of the rent (where the tenant gets it) is irrelevant to how it is taxed as income of the landlord. And my housemate who said those things, does actually get HB, I've seen the envelopes from the council!
Therefore, I have decided to stay quiet for the moment. They don't know that I know that they are lying, so I'll just let the subject drop to focus on more important things.
@ DRP et al: you are right that it is dodgy but there are worse situations to be, and it is an improvement to where I've been recently. I have even seen lettings agents offering properties without anything in writing at all! In one case, I asked the LA if there is a joint tenancy or seperate ones for each room and he casually said "Nothing like that, just pay the rent and your share of the bills to the head tenant every month"! In another case, the LA said similarly "We don't do contracts for rooms", and the room in question turned out to be an -apparently- illegaly converted HMO. Where should have been the back garden of the house, the whole area was built as about 6 rooms with a single toilet and single kitchen. The rooms didn't have any windows (party walls between them and the adjoining properties), the only source of sunlight/air was a tiny skylight. On top of that the, the whole place was a fire hazard and the agent appeared disturbed when I tried to take a photo of the room (the ad had none). Needless to say that I ran away.
By the way, in both cases the asked rent was above the respective LHA in these areas, so I can only guess that there are even worse places out there....:eek:You wanna hear about my new obsession?
I'm riding high upon a deep recession...0 -
If the real landlord is abroad, could the fake landlord be liable for passing on the tax to the HMRC due from the real landlord...0
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