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Flatlining GDP is Our Fault
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general public afraid to spend in uncertain times.
I'm not sure why you keep banging on that drum when we've shown that it isn't true. Saving has returned to an approximate long-term average, in fact if anything people are spending a higher proportion of their incomes than they once did.0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »The answer is that you can't have it all ways. If consumers save instead of spending, for whatever reason, at a time of slump, then it will prolong the slump. If they do not see fit to blame themselves, then it's no good trying to blame anyone else either. If even half the additional 5% a year being saved over the immediate pre-crunch period was put back into spending it would make a huge difference.
Business confidence is in large part a reaction to consumer confidence. In large part the one will drive the other.
Sounds like governments have mismanged our money for long enough perhaps we need a new model?
They have sold off all the good stuff that was invested in by our parents and grand parents. They have encouraged those that can't save to borrow to the max. They have borrowed to the max themselves. Now they want to raid the savings of the prudent.
Does make you wonder what they would have done if there wasn't a prudent contingent?
What would they be doing now if we had all spent like crazy and gone a debt fueled binge?
Smacks of desperation to suggest we bail them out voluntarily could be seen as a stealth tax. A bit like raiding the kids piggy bank."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
But spending on what?
You appear to be confusing 'spending' with 'consumption'. The two are not the same.
So what does consumption without spending comprise -- theft ?No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Sounds like governments have mismanged our money for long enough perhaps we need a new model?
They have sold off all the good stuff that was invested in by our parents and grand parents. They have encouraged those that can't save to borrow to the max. They have borrowed to the max themselves. Now they want to raid the savings of the prudent.
Does make you wonder what they would have done if there wasn't a prudent contingent?
What would they be doing now if we had all spent like crazy and gone a debt fueled binge?
Smacks of desperation to suggest we bail them out voluntarily could be seen as a stealth tax. A bit like raiding the kids piggy bank.
As a society we did go on a crazy debt fuelled binge up to 2008.
Don't understand what "bailing them out" means. Consumer spending will only help government finances to the extent that VAT etc revenue would rise. But the main beneficial effect would be to help kick start the economy and lift out of the slump.
I'm afraid those comments savour very much of : "Let's not help this Tory-led government by spending in order to lift ourselves out of the slump. Let's cut off our noses to spite our faces and try to get Labour back in, then we can spend again and make out that they made it happen."No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
I'm not sure why you keep banging on that drum when we've shown that it isn't true. Saving has returned to an approximate long-term average, in fact if anything people are spending a higher proportion of their incomes than they once did.
When we look at the periods of uncertainty or recession then the savings ratio rises...the last period 1990 was a low of 4% and then a rise to around 12%.
This time around 2007 savings were near 1% and have increased above 7% ??...again showing a similar pattern..
The 1980 period saw something like 4% rising to 14%..
What we've seen since 1950 as I've tried to explain is a rising wave up to 1980...then a falling wave since then....theres never a straight line as we know.
Since 1980 theres got to be a reason for a massive change in trend...why up for decades and then dramatically down...as I've posted before I think its encouragement from government and business to change our thinking.
I expect this line to fall back if the economy improves wether we get to 1% who knows...the return to growth this time has been slow to say the least and not like the 1980 and 1990 recessions.0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »As a society we did go on a crazy debt fuelled binge up to 2008.
Not all of of society.
Many are already suffering as a result :- Capital being eroded, interest rates on the floor, annuities putting many into long term penury.
Don't understand what "bailing them out" means. Consumer spending will only help government finances to the extent that VAT etc revenue would rise. But the main beneficial effect would be to help kick start the economy and lift out of the slump.
Inflates GDP figures, it could just pour ever more money into the east or the Costas with the government creaming 20%. Balance of payments deteriorating is not really going to help. When it is gone it is gone.
I'm afraid those comments savour very much of : "Let's not help this Tory-led government by spending in order to lift ourselves out of the slump. Let's cut off our noses to spite our faces and try to get Labour back in, then we can spend again and make out that they made it happen."
The final paragraph is just your ramblings, to suggest anyone who disagrees with you must be a marxist. Wouldn't matter which party was in power.
You moan enough about your wallet being emptied, involuntarily paying unjustified tax why should I or you pay voluntarily for stuff we don't want or need. I am sure the chancellor will soon be asking for our shirts.
Savings may also be being put into investments where we are already risking capital in the private sector."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »The final paragraph is just your ramblings, to suggest anyone who disagrees with you must be a marxist. Wouldn't matter which party was in power.
You moan enough about your wallet being emptied, involuntarily paying unjustified tax why should I or you pay voluntarily for stuff we don't want or need. I am sure the chancellor will soon be asking for our shirts.
Savings may also be being put into investments where we are already risking capital in the private sector.
Now you are getting personal and silly. You are rattled. Enough said.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »Now you are getting personal and silly. You are rattled. Enough said.
I am not getting personal merely reversing what you do to anybody that disagrees with your point of view.
Enough said because you know it makes sense.:cool:"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »
I am not getting personal merely reversing what you do to anybody that disagrees with your point of view.
Enough said because you know it makes sense.:cool:
That's your opinion of what I do because you don't like your own bias and illogicality being called out in that way. Doesn't make you right.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »That's your opinion of what I do because you don't like your own bias and illogicality being called out in that way. Doesn't make you right.
It is what you do.
I never said It did.
."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0
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