What to expect from an accountant?

Bea787

Please help! Am I being unreasonable here? I was very anxious re tax affairs and approached an accountant to help me clarify issues going back a few years. He agreed for a set fee. When he went through his completed calculations with me and I asked questions to understand my situation and resultant tax bill, he spent some time explaining things, but was clearly a little irritated. Ok, I can see it would have been easier for him if I just nodded and took it away but I didn't think it was an unreasonable request to understand things a little. To me it was part of the service I was paying for. Am I wrong? Anyway, he told me to go away and look at his calculations against my P60s etc that I had provided him with. On the upside I finally got my head round it all, with the help of this forum also (thank you :T), but almost all of my calculations based on the same info I gave him are different, and his calculations do not always use the figures on my P60s and tax certificates (I can't tell where he has got them from in some cases).

He is chasing me to settle my bill, while I am chasing him to clarify certain matters. Truth is, his calculations are more in my favour than mine, but if there are errors, then I won't be able to defend the info to the tax office and would rather have it accurate from the start and get a clean slate. I'm finding his responses very woolly, clearly irritated by me and unhelpful. All I'm asking is why his figures may differ from those I believe should be the source, if he has included business expenses or not, as he said he has, but they do not show, and for clarity on 2 other things that hopefully someone here might be able to assist me with which are:

1) in order to claim for business expenses (professional fess etc) do you have to be registered as self employed or a business as I am not (I work full time but in the past did some private work as well)

2) I read something about only having to do a tax return regarding savings income if your savings interest income is £10 000 or more from taxed savings or £2500 or more from untaxed savings and I was unsure how to interpret this. Does that mean my savings interest would need to be >£10 000 after tax (mine isn't!) for me to need to do a return and if so, am I right that I still need to tell the tax office but I won't be confined to the dates that apply to tax returns?

I checked and re-checked my calcs assuming I must be making an error, not the professional, and I have been polite in asking for clarity, I haven't approached him saying he has got it wrong. But I don't know how to resolve it if he won't assist, and I currently feel like I have done it all myself if I have had to check his work and if the errors are his (if). So I am reluctant to pay my bill until I am sure that his calculations are accurate (but is it defensible not to pay at this stage?).

Please help. Am I asking too much or are my expectations reasonable? Any advice on how to proceed? And any help with the above 2 queries. Thanks so much. Apologies for the lengthy post.

Pennywise

Have you asked clear, specific questions, i.e. "why does my P60 show gross wages being £5,120 but box 1 on page E1 shows £5,210" or "why does my bank interest certificate show interest of £521.21 but box 1 on page TR3 shows £944.44." That way he can give clear, concise reasons or admit a mistake.

You need to look at the individual entry boxes on each section of the main return form - these then make up the entries on the "tax calculation" form which shows the actual tax due. Sometimes things won't make immediate sense - such as the way dividends are entered "net" after tax on page TR3 but appear in the tax calculation summary as "gross" before tax - that's nothing to do with him - it's the way HMRC specify and there are lots of other anomalies like that which do cause confusion.

Re "business expenses" - it depends what type they are - some will be allowable against your employment income, some won't. It's impossible to say which without knowing what they are. If you don't think they're allowable, why did you tell him about them?

A certain level of question/answer is perfectly acceptable if it appears there are errors, but in my opinion, it's unreasonable to question everything and ask for chapter and verse on everything.

You've paid him to complete your tax return, not give you a training session on how tax works and all the in's and out's of the tax return process - but that doesn't mean you can't raise valid questions if you think some of the numbers are wrong - but nor does that mean he has to keep explaining himself for everything if it's not wrong.

cotswoldaccountant

I am an accountant and would be horrified if I thought one of my clients didn't understand the figures in their tax return and I wasn't happy to explain it to them.

I always suggest that clients contact me if they have any queries on anything I send to them. As Pennywise says, there can be many potential anomalies in the tax return - which is often why people request a professional to do the job for them - but most of these can be explained to the client fairly easily. I think it is totally reasonable of a client to request explanations if they are not quite sure about something!

chrismac1

Agree the last post.

My view is simple - it is the client's name which goes on the tax return or at Companies House, not mine. Part of my job is to explain every single number on either, when asked by any client.

Ironically I've just today submitted at Companies House probably the set of accounts where I had the most queries. The client had done his own in previous years and did not have a full understanding of various rules, albeit his overall final numbers were pretty close this was some ups and downs cancelling out.

I like it when clients ask questions, it's the ones who seem willing to sign off just about anything I come up with which are more worrying. Suppose this client today gets inspected. Those numbers are not his numbers, not my numbers - they are OUR numbers. We have a common understanding of how we ended up at the final result, should HMRC challenge them they wont' be able to sneak a wafer thin piece of paper between the client and myself.

Whereas for the more accepting clients, when put on the spot I can't help feeling they might be tempted to say "I don't know where the numbers come from, I just sign them off" which not only does not help them legally with HMRC it also helps HMRC pick us off individually.

Bea787

Thank you for all the replies so far. It's really helpful to hear from other accountants.

I've taken Pennywise's advice and sent specific questions through (I had initially raised the issues generally and asked the accountant's advice on how he would like to resolve it rather than send him all the queries initially), but as his response was somewhat unhelpful I came here.

I understand the point re not asking for a tax lesson absolutely. I have pretty much educated myself online and with the forum's help etc so have not been asking him how it is done in general, rather how he has arrived at the figures based on my information, when I arrive elsewhere. I by no means think that gives me more than a basic understanding in order to take some responsibility for my figures. Re. the expenses - as agreed at the start of the job, I submitted him a list of what I now know to be allowable expenses (professional body) with dates, fees and details, and asked whether I could claim for them or not without being registered self employed. I still don't have the answer.

I only have his tax calculation form, not the HMRC form that Pennywise refers to. Should I have been provided with both? Also, if anyone can answer points 1 + 2 in the original post for me I'd really appreciate it. I'll see how he responds to the specific queries as I'd really like to resolve it amicably and be happy with the service I'm paying for, and not drive him round the bend in the process! We'll see ...

Cook_County

Which professional bodies is he a member of?

antonic

I can help you with point #2.

All taxable savings income has to be declared, as well as any tax deducted at source.

Taxable sources will include interest received on savings, HMRC then give you credit for the tax deducted from your savings against any liability to tax.

You do NOT need to declare income from ISA`s as they are specifically tax free savings.

You can only receive GROSS interest on your interest if your total income does not exceed the appropriate personal tax allowance for this year (£8105 if you are under 65).

Pennywise

Bea787 wrote: »

I only have his tax calculation form, not the HMRC form that Pennywise refers to.

It's bad practice (not sure, maybe even against HMRC guidelines for agents), for full tax return (or a complete list of entries) not to be given to the taxpayer to check before submission. Alarm bells are ringing. Was this guy recommended to you? He is a qualified accountant isn't he? (Anyone can call themselves an accountant!). Please tell me you didn't just ring round a few from Yellow Pages (or shop window advs) and go with the cheapest!

nomunnofun

Pennywise wrote: »

It's bad practice (not sure, maybe even against HMRC guidelines for agents), for full tax return (or a complete list of entries) not to be given to the taxpayer to check before submission. Alarm bells are ringing. Was this guy recommended to you? He is a qualified accountant isn't he? (Anyone can call themselves an accountant!). Please tell me you didn't just ring round a few from Yellow Pages (or shop window advs) and go with the cheapest!

I confirm that my client has received and approved a copy of this return containing the correct reference number and has given me authority to submit their return.

Spot on pennywise- this declaration has to be ticked before submitting as an agent.
.*

Bea787

Thanks all so much.

I received a reply to my specific queries - very blunt, but ok, at least he gave me the figures he had used. Of the 6 years I had asked him to review 5 include some errors from what I can tell. It's not all wrong but for example, figures from P60s have not always been used correctly, and some interest figures missed off, and rounding up that makes no sense to me.

He was recommended by a self employed friend who I trust and who trusts him! I can't remember what other checks I made at the outset but I think when I checked his website and saw IFA I was reassured. Well, since your replies I have tried to check registration more fully and ... can't find him yet, although am not fully sure which different places to check. I was almost sure I'd checked ICAEW but now I can't find him on there. The website says IFA, AIA and AAT and after his name are MAAT AAIA MInstAM DipM MBA. Can anyone help me interpret whether these are meaningful? I'll have a search myself also.

I'm really not sure where to go with this next. I have a bill from him, but I have basically re-done his work myself. I could send him notice of the errors and let him recalculate and submit to the tax office and just be done with it but I'm not sure I trust him now and what would I be paying him for if I have had to correct all his errors?! I think I would rather deal with the tax man myself and have nothing more to do with this accountant but does anyone know what my rights are re his bill in these circumstances? I think he must have some merits as my friend has used him for a few years (although he does instruct him to just do the work and he doesn't then review it so carefully as I have done). I'm almost despairing with this now! At this rate I could be later with the tax man and get in more trouble that end. Any advice really welcomed. Thanks again

Bea787

Oh, and apparently he's also an associate member of the society of share and business valuers! whatever that is worth ...