Solar ... In the news

zeupater

tunnel wrote: »

Ah i see...i think. to me that would make sense, as i said, rates for FITs and leccy tariffs are becoming comparable. I don't see the point being paid for something then having to pay to buy it back.

Am i right in saying Mart is that when the FITs becomes less than the leccy then thats when net metering works? Would definately help people out,then the only people buying battery banks would be folk on the highest FITs rates. Looks like the early adopters have to shell more again to me.:(

Hi

I think that pv net metering would depend on the pre-requisite of a roll-out of smart metering ...

The example I provided a few posts ago actually depends on new-metering being in place. UK net meters will be capable of HHM (Half Hour Metering) which will provide the energy suppliers to charge different rates per half-hour period (HHB). I don't know the specifications of the smart meters in Florida, but I do know that within the example given there are four potential charges - night, low & peak, with the possibility of a really high tariff (I think it's well over $1/kWh) which is designed to discourage all unessential usage in emergency situations such as post-hurricane etc. .... also peak time & the length of the peak period actually varies by season ....

If you look back over Cardew's posts you'll see that he has (/had ?) a property in the USA which has smart metering and a cheaper tariff plan which allows the energy suppliers to switch-off high demand devices (Air-conditioning etc.) for short periods within peak or 'emergency' periods. The smart-meter which allows this will probably already be capable of net-metering as it is a compulsory provision within a number of states.

As you can see, the US is using smart-metering to drive both 'carrot' and 'stick' approaches to energy demand, so it is almost inevitable that smart meters will be used in the same way here when they are finally rolled out, that's why domestic net-metering should be considered as being the logical successor to pv FiTs.

HTH
Z

zeupater

rogerblack wrote: »

.... I wish there was some detailed study done into the actual economics of how much it would cost the utilities to service large quantities of solar.

Hi Roger

Logically, it should be exactly the same as a simple change in usage pattern combined with a reduction in demand .....

To place into context, like many others, we have, over time, changed many of our appliances for lower energy consumption versions and will continue to do so .... just the move from CRT, Plasma and LCD televisions to current generation LED models over the next few years will have much more effect on the total UK demand than the combined peak generation capacity of all pv currently installed in the UK. However, the big challenge for the energy providers isn't confined to pv or LED TVs, it's what the possible effect that major changes of energy sources for electric cars, trains, buses, heat-pumps etc will be on the demand curve ..... and, of course, how they can leverage the most profit out of this change ....

HTH
Z

Cardew

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I think that pv net metering would depend on the pre-requisite of a roll-out of smart metering ...

I don't know the specifications of the smart meters in Florida, but I do know that within the example given there are four potential charges - night, low & peak, with the possibility of a really high tariff (I think it's well over $1/kWh) which is designed to discourage all unessential usage in emergency situations such as post-hurricane etc. .... also peak time & the length of the peak period actually varies by season ....

If you look back over Cardew's posts you'll see that he has (/had ?) a property in the USA which has smart metering and a cheaper tariff plan which allows the energy suppliers to switch-off high demand devices (Air-conditioning etc.) for short periods within peak or 'emergency' periods. The smart-meter which allows this will probably already be capable of net-metering as it is a compulsory provision within a number of states.

As you can see, the US is using smart-metering to drive both 'carrot' and 'stick' approaches to energy demand, so it is almost inevitable that smart meters will be used in the same way here when they are finally rolled out, that's why domestic net-metering should be considered as being the logical successor to pv FiTs.

HTH
Z

My place is in Florida and the mandatory supplier for the area(Brevard)is Florida Power and Light(www.fpl.com). This is also by far the largest supplier in Florida with 8 million customers.

I am not aware of any variable rates* and we have 'survived' several hurricanes.

The structure of charging is shown here:

http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/Residential_explanation.pdf

with a typical example of a bill here:

http://www.fpl.com/customer/how_to_read_your_bill.shtml
(put curser over each item for a more detailed explanation)

This is their solar subsidy scheme. My friend(an estate agent) does not know anyone who has managed to get the PV subsidy.

http://www.fpl.com/landing/solar_rebate/residential.shtml

'The Rebate: $2 per watt of the DC output of a PV system, up to $20,000'

I would have thought that the rebate for a 10kWp system would be more than the installation cost!




*The main change is when consumption exceeds 1,000kWh a month the price of a kWh increases by 2 cents(23% in the example shown)

rogerblack

zeupater wrote: »

Hi Roger

Logically, it should be exactly the same as a simple change in usage pattern combined with a reduction in demand .....

To a degree, yes.
However, if a region (anywhere from a few houses on the same pole transformer, to an estate, to a town) has enough solar that the load variation increases enough so that it requires extra hardware to carry the current, or to regulate voltage or ship power elsewhere - the cost may be more.

Another possible problem with smart meters - is that they may make current decisions about economy 7 heating questionable.

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

If you look back over Cardew's posts you'll see that he has (/had ?) a property in the USA which has smart metering and a cheaper tariff plan which allows the energy suppliers to switch-off high demand devices (Air-conditioning etc.) for short periods within peak or 'emergency' periods. The smart-meter which allows this will probably already be capable of net-metering as it is a compulsory provision within a number of states.

HTH
Z

You might be completely correct, or possibly confusing with a post I made a long time ago, about California.

I think I read it in New Scientist. California had run a successful test where some customers were offered a slightly lower tariff if they accepted 'some interference' with their A/C. Numbers from memory, but I think it was that they could switch off A/C (via smart meters) for up to 20mins per hour, when demand was high.

The test results were very promising as customers hadn't noticed any problems or inconvenience and as well as benefiting from a lower rate, also benefited from slightly lower consumption too (when the A/C was off).

Of course what this really demonstrates is that A/C is sometimes being over-used.

So in the UK we should turn the thermostat down and put a jumper on. In the US, they should turn the thermostat up, and take their clothes off - hmmm!

Another interesting thing I read/watched about California, was that they have one of the highest leccy prices, due to all the renewables they have, but also one of the lowest leccy bills due to a huge programme of investing in energy efficiency and household insulation.

Mart.

zeupater

Cardew wrote: »

My place is in Florida and the mandatory supplier for the area(Brevard)is Florida Power and Light(www.fpl.com). This is also by far the largest supplier in Florida with 8 million customers.

I am not aware of any variable rates* and we have 'survived' several hurricanes.

The structure of charging is shown here:

http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/Residential_explanation.pdf

with a typical example of a bill here:

http://www.fpl.com/customer/how_to_read_your_bill.shtml
(put curser over each item for a more detailed explanation)

This is their solar subsidy scheme. My friend(an estate agent) does not know anyone who has managed to get the PV subsidy.

http://www.fpl.com/landing/solar_rebate/residential.shtml

'The Rebate: $2 per watt of the DC output of a PV system, up to $20,000'

I would have thought that the rebate for a 10kWp system would be more than the installation cost!




*The main change is when consumption exceeds 1,000kWh a month the price of a kWh increases by 2 cents(23% in the example shown)

Hi

From the link provided there is a full tariff sheet and a summary sheet (http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/Residential_Spring.pdf) which includes an optional time based tariff (RATE SCHEDULE: RST-1) .... looks like there are only two tariffs and some form of storm supplement on the FPL time based tariff as opposed to the one I mentioned ...

Regarding the high 'emergency' tariff .... I simply take it that those would be the conditions where non-essential appliances would need to be temporarily switched off in order to save money as opposed to having the supplier switch them off for you to save them demand. It's really the same issue approached from a different perspective ... carrot & stick ... from your supplier you have the carrot of a lower tariff for ceding the decision to the supplier, from theirs they have the stick of punitive costs if they don't react to the supply conditions themselves (manually or automatically) ....

HTH
Z

zeupater

rogerblack wrote: »

... Another possible problem with smart meters - is that they may make current decisions about economy 7 heating questionable.

Hi

I think that the above is entirely correct .... the energy suppliers will tend to use HHM data to force their customer base to change their usage pattern in order to smooth demand.

From what I've read, there's absolutely no profit to be made (/being made) from supplying electricity overnight, therefore there is a very large incentive for the suppliers to encourage usage pattern change which will be helped by the likes of overnight charging of electric vehicles and a shift towards heat-pumps etc. .... Of course, when there is a significant requirement for electricity overnight, the ratio between daytime & night-time tariffs will fall .... this is why smart-meters are being pushed by the industry - they see it as a way to improve overall margins (driven by usage pattern changes) and have the customers pay for the meters (as opposed to normal end of life exchange) whilst keeping their own capital-investment in major plant to a minimum ...

HTH
Z

zeupater

Martyn1981 wrote: »

You might be completely correct, or possibly confusing with a post I made a long time ago, about California.

I think I read it in New Scientist. California had run a successful test where some customers were offered a slightly lower tariff if they accepted 'some interference' with their A/C. Numbers from memory, but I think it was that they could switch off A/C (via smart meters) for up to 20mins per hour, when demand was high.

The test results were very promising as customers hadn't noticed any problems or inconvenience and as well as benefiting from a lower rate, also benefited from slightly lower consumption too (when the A/C was off).

Of course what this really demonstrates is that A/C is sometimes being over-used.

So in the UK we should turn the thermostat down and put a jumper on. In the US, they should turn the thermostat up, and take their clothes off - hmmm!

Another interesting thing I read/watched about California, was that they have one of the highest leccy prices, due to all the renewables they have, but also one of the lowest leccy bills due to a huge programme of investing in energy efficiency and household insulation.

Mart.

Hi

I simply remembered a post relating to his place in Florida from years back ... it's probably this one .... (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=45506500&postcount=9) ....

... reading through it afresh, I'm not sure whether the property was on this tariff or it was simply an available option, but it doesn't change the premise that it exists (/existed).

HTH
Z

Martyn1981

Cardew wrote: »

'The Rebate: $2 per watt of the DC output of a PV system, up to $20,000'

I would have thought that the rebate for a 10kWp system would be more than the installation cost!

For Germany (or the UK) thanks to FITs you'd probably be close, with upto 10kWp systems costing around $2.5/Wp in late 2012 (~£6,250 for a 4kWp system in the UK). But not for the US which prefers other subsidy schemes, as the cost is more like $5.5/Wp. (Although, as Zeupater has found, prices obviously vary greatly across the US - perhaps German PV teams go on holiday to Disney World!)

Another interesting US report/article:

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/02/17/why-german-solar-is-so-much-cheaper-than-u-s-solar-updated-study/

• BNEF (2012) indicates the presence of value-based pricing in both the US and Germany.
• Following this hypothesis, the iterative reduction of the FiT presses German installers to lower system prices to maintain attractive investments for their customers
• Similar forces may operate less efficiently in the U.S., yielding higher “value-based” prices, even for customer-owned systems

[Edit: Oddly, the very first graph in that article has the statement "Inverter efficiency assumed to be 85%." That's a very odd sentence, since domestic inverters should be over 90% for the older smaller ones, and around 95-98% for the better models. Perhaps it's just a catch-all term referring to the overall conversion from DC (at the panels) to AC (at the CU) including all system losses, which is often stated at around 10-14%. Don't know!]

Mart.

aurion22

Not sure if this is the right thread .. just searched for "solar pv". I've had a visit today from a company whose salesman told me it would be £6900 for their solar pv setup if they send me a quote but, "if you sign up now", it would only be £6200. The slight snag is that there's NO cooling-off period so I would have been committing myself to the contract. Is that legal?
Thanks for any feedback.
Loretta