RHI - Have the cowboys arrived in town already ?

rogerblack

zeupater wrote: »

....

... you've not come to the conclusion that the industry bamboozled the 'highly educated' wretches in the civil service yet again and skewed the consultation conclusions towards benefiting their own margins then ?? .... :D ... when will the public sector finally learn that there is wide chasm of difference between being educated and being intelligent ??

Z

Sigh.
It's a real shame, as some of the 'DIY' installed high-end air-air heatpumps actually do make sense, and would be - if the property does not have gas - a meaningful energy and carbon saving.

But, of course, they are ineligible.

zeupater

rogerblack wrote: »

Sigh.
It's a real shame, as some of the 'DIY' installed high-end air-air heatpumps actually do make sense, and would be - if the property does not have gas - a meaningful energy and carbon saving.

But, of course, they are ineligible.

I agree .... Air-to-air is equally as efficient as Air-to-water and would be installed at a fraction of the cost .. even at the highly inflated UK prices ...

Whilst on the subject, someone I know has a property in Spain and has recently replaced the Air-to-air heatpumps with more efficient inverter based units and after doing so was sufficiently impressed that he looked into having a couple of the same units installed in his property in the UK. He was, let's say, 'a little more than amazed' when all of the UK installers which quoted gave the same set of reasons for their overinflated prices .... seemingly the UK installers cannot buy units in £(wholesale) as the Spanish installers can supply in €(fully installed) ...

It unfortunately seems that the meaning of the line "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" applies to the UK these days ...

Z

grahamc2003

rogerblack wrote: »

Sigh.
It's a real shame, as some of the 'DIY' installed high-end air-air heatpumps actually do make sense, and would be - if the property does not have gas - a meaningful energy and carbon saving.

But, of course, they are ineligible.

Air to air heatpumps seem to make a great deal of sense to me - easy to install, modular, and relatively efficient. The problem with all these subsidies is that they try to 'level the playing field' - which means subsidising the least efficient more than the most efficient. Air to air won't be subsidised because the DECC say take up is sufficient without a subsidy! So the rhi sways people like me away from air to air, and into air to water, just so basically I can make a profit on my future heating costs (i.e. they'll be negative post rhi) and get a free heating system - even after being ripped off with inflated mcs costs.

Also, I currently use effectively night time waste electricity, with an air to water heat pump, I'll be switching that to mainly daytime, and even peak time usage - the very opposite of what is really required from our energy supply system!

Cardew

An excellent post in the ASHP thread.

Air Source Heat Pump Newbie





First of all thanks
to all for the contributions. The amount of confusion over air source is plain
to see. I wondered whether I could share my experience so far.

I have a
verbal quote which I am happy with, but we will share that later.

My
situation. I have a three bed house with a 22 year old oil combi boiler which
is dying less slowly than I would like. We are not on mains gas and can't get
it here in the village.

I have done calcs on the house and the heat loss
is 7Kw.

Like many here I have had many interesting conversations with
installers who think that massively overcharging is the way forward. I have
been quoted between £8.5K to 11K for a 9Kw Air source heat pump from 5 different
"eco" companies who you will find if you look for heat pumps on the
web.

I like to know what I am buying and after a while I narrowed it down
to Samsung / Daiken / Mitsibushi and started having some interesting
conversations where I started deconstructing the price with these companies to
understand where the money was going (they don't like this process BTW - be
strong refuse to be diverted). Imagine my surprise when I started learning that
the heat pumps (from almost everyone) are about £2.5K (ebay) or less out to
trade (for this size). Now I need an indirect unvented cylinder to replace the
old combi function and of course that is expensive too as it is a effectively a
pressure vessel. After more fishing about you can get a Gledhill Heat Pump
indirect cylinder 250litre for £680 (ebay). There are a few bits and bobs
such as valves and gauges, but really they don't cost a fortune. Incidentally a
lot of these come with the Gledhill as standard.

So if we say a trade
should be £150-£180 a day and it is 2 guys for 2 days, plus commissioning and
the MCS paperwork you might wonder where the extra £4k to £6k is going. I
was.

I then called one of the manufacturers and had a chat asking why
every person I call is after a premium price and won't move much (at this point
I was beginning to think it was me). They gave me a gem of advice - use an air
conditioning company. The market is more established, the idiots have mostly
been stripped out of the industry leaving established players who are more
efficient and while they are looking for a profit are not looking to retire to a
Caribbean island tomorrow on my money. The technology is effectively the same
and the good ones have or are going through the process of the MCS
certification.

Now at this point you could be forgiven for thinking I
work in the a/c industry. I don't. Never have and none of my friends or family
do either.

BUT - suddenly I am having a sensible conversation with an a/c
company who are one of the leading 6 suppliers in the UK (Part of Samsung's
"Super 6"). Really nice MD, we have a chat through and we have agreed verbally
9Kw Monoblock system paired with 210 Gledhill Indirect Unvented for HALF of what
I have been quoted elsewhere (under £5,000). Complete, delivered and all MCS
registration.

Now I know I am coming across as unbelievably tight, but I
wanted to help others look in the right place first rather than get frustrated
with poor and greedy suppliers. If anyone wants the supplier details please
message me and I will give contact info.

I do want some help from the
forum though. The energy saving trust said the trials were mixed. Our house is
1926 but the walls were insulated last year and the loft is 400mm to 450mm,
double glazed all round. All the radiators are massively oversized (over 50%) as
I replaced them 5 years ago and I knew I wanted to give myself some leeway on
technology. So I can run them quite cold (35 to 40 degrees). Heating can be
supplemented by wood burner in lounge.

Will my bills go down from using
oil? Or am I going to get a massive shock with my first electricity bill
(current supplier OVO)

Also can I get a better tariff with this heating
and can I get economy 7 and is it worth it?

All help
appreciated,

Thanks

Andy

zeupater

grahamc2003 wrote: »

.... Air to air won't be subsidised because the DECC say take up is sufficient without a subsidy! ....

Hi

I think that there's probably a further underlying issue here which has been overlooked in everything I've ever seen on Air-to-Air being excluded from RHI.

Air-to-Air is a reversible pump technology which effectively introduces the risk that a scheme (RHI) which is designed to reduce energy usage, and therefore carbon emissions, would introduce, through the inclusion of A/A, a new energy demand for household cooling in the summer .... a case of "well I've got it so I might as well use it".

Of course, there is a pretty simply solution which the designers of RHI have overlooked, that being - make pv a prerequisit of Air-to-Air system registration under the RHI scheme !!

HTH
Z

John_Pierpoint

Well the cowboy/fraudsters said they would ring me back this week, when my better half can agree a date too.
Funny that they have not done so - anyone remember the bit in the film about boiler rooms where the boss says "don't sell to the !!!!!". [lady dog]
(ie men are more "honourable" and will take the rip off on the chin)

[Interestingly BBC Radio 4 "Moneybox" has just had a programme including the warning that the boiler rooms have moved on "Share fraud -> Land Banking -> Carbon Credit" apparently there are 150 companies trying to sell "certificates for air".
Perhaps it is time to compose a MSE ladder for energy saving/carbon reduction technologies ]

http://www.saynotocoldcalls.com/

John_Pierpoint

rogerblack wrote: »

Never mind that a three times more powerful heatpump is considerably more expensive, larger, maybe louder.

Yes but in our climate for most of the time we can get by using only 1/3 of our installed capacity - this applies to fridge, freezer, gas boiler or even an economy 7 heating system; it is only those few weeks of the year that have below zero/above 25 temperatures, that challenge these systems to work 24/7 - I'm prepared to stoke the log burner [and shut town some of the rooms and cross my fingers that the sun will shine], if that is what it needs in the bleak mid winter.

John_Pierpoint

Here is a tip for free:

When signing up to insert spam, it is not a good idea to have spelling mistakes in the spam. Regardless of the organisations plumbing abilities, it makes it look like a phishing trip from Nigeria.

There are three self evident spelling mistakes on the first page of the Bolton based firm's web site.

If the organisation cannot be bothered to get such a simple thing right, how good will its rule of thumb heat pump installations be?

InVestor_2

Opal_Heating wrote: »

Thanks for the advice
It is much appreciated yes agree I should of looked at my posting for spelling mistakes i have also looked at our website unsure ware these mistakes are as we have spell checker I would look at how you try to take the "P***" out of a post on spelling mistakes when you can't spell yourself "organisation" you spell this with a "z" not a "s" organization

I understand you posted late as did I, please have a nice day scratching on at the dole as you clearly have no future and have achieved nothing in life thanks for reading....

You, Sir, are a fantastic advertisement for your Company.

Legend.

John_Pierpoint

Once upon a time I was commissioned to write a report for the American branch of an international haulage firm.

Naturally as I had an American audience I spelled those black things found at the corners of "trucks" as "tires".


If you use an American spell checker, you will be writing for an American audience. - Not a lot of them in Bolton though.


I doubt an American spell checker has any idea how to find its way to Gatwick airport.

Greek-derived spellings

-ise, -ize (-isation, -ization)

See also: Oxford spelling
American spelling avoids -ise endings in words like organize, realize and recognize.[35] British spelling uses both -ize and -ise (organise / organize, realise / realize, recognise / recognize),[35] and the ratio between -ise and -ize stands at 3:2 in the British National Corpus.[36] In Australia and New Zealand -ise spellings strongly prevail: the -ise form is preferred in Australian English at a ratio of about 3:1 according to the Macquarie Dictionary.
Worldwide, -ize endings prevail in scientific writing and are commonly used by many international organizations, such as the International Organization for Standardization and the World Health Organization. The European Union switched from -ize to -ise some years ago in its English language publications, meaning that -ize spellings are found in older legislative acts and -ise spellings in more recent ones. Proofreaders at the EU's Publications Office ensure consistent spelling in official publications such as the Official Journal (where legislation and other official documents are published), but the -ize spelling may be found in other documents.
The same applies to derivatives and inflexions such as colonisation/colonization.
British usage British English using -ize is known as Oxford spelling and is used in publications of the Oxford University Press, most notably the Oxford English Dictionary (OED). It can be identified using the registered IANA language tag en-GB-oed. The OED lists the -ise form separately, as "a frequent spelling of -IZE", and refuses to list the -ise spellings even as alternatives in the individual entries for words such as realize.[37] It firmly deprecates using -ise for words of Greek origin, saying, "[T]he suffix...whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Greek -ιζειν, Latin -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling in -iser should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic". It says "some have used the spelling -ise in English, as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or English from Latin elements, retaining -ize for those of Greek composition".[38] Noah Webster rejected -ise for the same reasons.[39] Henry Watson Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage quotes the OED and recommends the -ize- spelling. Horace Hart in Hart's Rules for Compositors and Readers at the University Press, Oxford[40] also recommended -ize.
The Cambridge University Press, on the other hand, has long preferred -ise[41] and many reference works, including the Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage, prefer -ise.[41]
Perhaps as a reaction to the ascendancy of American spelling, the -ize spelling is often seen in the UK as an Americanism, and -ise is more commonly used in UK mass media and newspapers,[35] including The Times, The Daily Telegraph and The Economist. Meanwhile, -ize is used in many British-based academic publications, such as Nature, the Biochemical Journal and The Times Literary Supplement.
Exceptions Some verbs ending in -ize or -ise do not come from Greek -ιζειν, and their endings are therefore not interchangeable:

• Some words take only the -z- form worldwide, for example capsize, seize (except in the legal phrase to be seised of/to stand seised to), size and prize (only in the "appraise" sense)
• Others take only -s- worldwide: advise, arise, comprise, compromise, demise, despise, devise, disguise, excise, exercise, franchise, guise, incise, revise, rise, supervise, surmise, televise, and wise.
• One special case is the verb prise (meaning to force or lever), which is spelled prize in the US[42] and prise everywhere else,[43] including Canada,[44] although in North American English it is almost always replaced by pry, a back-formation from or alteration of prise.[45]
• Your house may be burglarized in North America, but in the UK it would be burgled, not burglarised.

What is it about a certain sort of person that makes them so convince they are right that they will try to argue that black is white and resort to "ad hominem" abuse?


I had the same problem when someone turned up to fill my son's cavity walls.


Let the facts speak for themselves say I, especially when armed with the "agrement" specification for the job.



Getting the installation of a heat pump right is difficult, especially in an existing property. Choose you installer carefully unless you both want your 15 minutes of fame on "Cowboy Builders".