Late Licensing Penalty.

me1vyn

Hi Everybody, im new to the forum and hope someone out there can help me.

I traded my car for a new on around september this year, filled all the correct paper work out with the garage and i then posted the v5 to the DVLA, i have now a couple of months later received a penalty in the post stating

Dear Sirs

Thankyou for your response in respect of the licensing penalty issued to you failing to license your vehicle as required1.

As the registered keeper of the vehicle, you remain responsible for relicensing or making a statutory off road notification. This responsability remains even if you allowed a motor trader or other third party to notify. While you have now advised that you are no longer the keeper of the vehicle the DVLA did not receive notification of this at the relevant time2. when we are advised that the keeper has changed we send an aknowlegment letter within 20 working days of notification.
consequently , you remain liable for the £80 fine or pay by 29.12.12 for the reduced rate of £40 or we will take further action.

I Have explained that all the dcouments were sent to the dvla by myself but has they hadnt had them they may have been lost in the post which they say, we understand but i am still liable as i never phoned them within 4weeks after selling to make sure my name was off the logbook, What can i do please help

thankyou Mel

spacey2012

Do they use the word FINE ?

arcon5

Do you have proof of postage or anything ?

Joe_Horner

No you're not liable.

Your liability extends to sending the forms, NOT to chasing up whether they've arrived or not. The "confirmation letter" they send has nothing to do with it because that's a purely voluntary thing they do whuch has no basis at all in law.

You'll probably have to stick your ground for a while, and they'll probably hand it on to a collection agancy to try and scare you into paying up, but just keep repeating that you sent the documents so you're not liable.

No matter what scare letters they send you, they CANNOT enforce this without getting a Court order saying that you owe the money. The chances of that happening are very slim indeed. Even if they do, there will be no CCJs etc involved unless you still refuse to pay after a Court tells you to. Tthey like to threaten the credit risks of it going to court - there are NO RISKS AT ALL as long as you pay if the Court decides in their favour (again, very unlikely!).

In any correspondence, never refer to it as a "penalty" either - it's only an alleged penalty unless they manage to get that court order confirming it - in exactly the same way as if I claim you owe me money and you don't think you do.


eta:

Proof of posting doesn't matter. If you say (in Court if they take it that far) that you posted it, then they MUST accept that you did, or else they're accusing you of lying or (in Court) perjury. That's a very serious accusation indeed, which they can't make without "criminal" levels of proof and there's no way they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that you didn't post it!. The law then assumes they received it unless they can prove that they didn't.

So the issue is then down to them to prove that it never arrived which they simply can't do (they've previously acknowledged that mail goes imssing in their system and they have no idea how much does)

spacey2012

The further action is to employ private debt collectors who pretend to be bailiffs (Illegal) .
Or at worst case file for a CCJ, which gives you good opportunity to file a rigid defence and demand any paper work including current Keeper details.
They have no appeal system, which is completely at odds with section 6 of the Human rights act, they have been successfully sued under section 7 of the act for breeching section 6.
They have no statutory legislation compelling you to inform them if you do not receive this 4 week letter.
The legislation they do have only compels you to serve the documents to them, which you have done and a simple affidavit will clear this point.
I would simply contact them asking for them to take the matter to your local county court without delay.

TrickyWicky

Joe_Horner wrote: »

The law then assumes they received it unless they can prove that they didn't.

I think the law would assume that you posted it and it may have been lost which is beyond your control. There is no way they can assume that the DVLA received it especially with the Royal Mail being as useless as they are these days.

Joe_Horner wrote: »

So the issue is then down to them to prove that it never arrived which they simply can't do (they've previously acknowledged that mail goes imssing in their system and they have no idea how much does)

I think you're onto the right principle but wrongly worded. They can prove that it never arrived (they probably log all their incoming post after dumping some in the skip lol) but they can't prove it wasn't posted.

TrickyWicky

spacey2012 wrote: »

I would simply contact them asking for them to take the matter to your local county court without delay.

Theres an old saying "be careful what you wish for". It's not worth fuelling the fire but don't cave in to their stupid demands and threats either. If they decide to go that far then it will happen but the odds are always in favour of them getting bored before then.

Paradigm

TrickyWicky wrote: »

I think you're onto the right principle but wrongly worded. They can prove that it never arrived (they probably log all their incoming post after dumping some in the skip lol) but they can't prove it wasn't posted.

That's what they have to do.....it's not possible though which is why they rarely do court.

rev_henry

TrickyWicky wrote: »

I think the law would assume that you posted it and it may have been lost which is beyond your control. There is no way they can assume that the DVLA received it especially with the Royal Mail being as useless as they are these days.



I think you're onto the right principle but wrongly worded. They can prove that it never arrived (they probably log all their incoming post after dumping some in the skip lol) but they can't prove it wasn't posted.

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 states that a document posted is deemed to be served by the time it would reasonably expected to have been delivered, for 1st class post, 2 days. So the law says if you posted it, its served 2 days later.

Joe_Horner

rev_henry wrote: »

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 states that a document posted is deemed to be served by the time it would reasonably expected to have been delivered, for 1st class post, 2 days. So the law says if you posted it, its served 2 days later.

It also allows that the assumption of delivery (or "service" can be countered by you proving that it didn't arrive. DVLA can't do that because they don't log incoming mail in a way that can track everything that comes into their buildings. All they can do is say "it didn't get onto the computer", which still means it can have been delivered but lost by their mailroom.

Which is why they have to prove it never arrived. You "prove" you posted it by saying you did, on oath, which means either you posted it or you're committing perjury. They can't accuse you of perjury without proof, so if you say you did then you did.

Because of the Interpretation Act, the only way then that they can say it wasn't served on them as required is by proving that it never arrived. And they simply don't have the systems in place to do that

Paradigm

Joe_Horner wrote: »

It also allows that the assumption of delivery (or "service" can be countered by you proving that it didn't arrive. DVLA can't do that because they don't log incoming mail in a way that can track everything that comes into their buildings. All they can do is say "it didn't get onto the computer", which still means it can have been delivered but lost by their mailroom.

Which is why they have to prove it never arrived. You "prove" you posted it by saying you did, on oath, which means either you posted it or you're committing perjury. They can't accuse you of perjury without proof, so if you say you did then you did.

Because of the Interpretation Act, the only way then that they can say it wasn't served on them as required is by proving that it never arrived. And they simply don't have the systems in place to do that

I have a slightly different view

The DVLA not receiving (losing) a V5 isn't enough to make me liable for a penalty, they must prove that I failed to notify/send said V5.

By placing the V5 in a suitably stamped/addressed envelope & posting in a post box I have complied with the law (road vehicles (registration & licencing) regulations 2002)

The interpretations act statement "that a document posted is deemed to be served by the time it would reasonably expected to have been delivered" is the clincher.

I believe the "offence" is failing to notify & not "we didn't get it", a subtle difference.

By posting it I have notified them, the law says so

As you rightly say, it's impossible to prove it was not sent which is why they employ Debt collectors, such as Intercredit, instead of going straight to court.