Not 'doing' Santa

balletshoes

arbroath_lass wrote: »

Is this a regional thing because I never heard of Father Christmas as a child, it was always Santa Clause. And I definitely believed in him.

We always wrote letters to Santa (they went up the chimney) and whilst I agree there were no grottos he always visited children's Christmas parties (nursery, Brownies, Girls Brigade etc).

This was the 70s too.

me too - but I come from the same neck of the woods as you arbroath lass (I'm a '70s kid too).

skintchick

Janepig wrote: »

My intention is not to deceive though. And at best it's fibbing. Not lying. And even if you want to call it lying, I still think it's better than filling the child's head about a load of mumbo jumbo religious nonsense and all the intolerance and ignorance that goes with that. In my opinion. :D

Jx

I make no distinctions between levels of untruths. They are all lies.

And of course you are aiming to deceive! You don't believe in FC, you know he doesn't exist, so to tell your child about him your intention is to deceive your child into believing in FC.

You might be perfectly happy with doing it, that's your choice, but it is still lying.

arbroath_lass

Carl31 wrote: »

Its probably worth pointing out that the only religious part about Christmas is the name, trees, present giving, feasts and Father Christmas all come from other parts of history, mostly pre dating the bible. The whole bible bit was added by the romans. I think in fact Jesus real birthday is earlier in the year.

Well no, many of these things come from other religions so perhaps by religious you actually mean Christian?

Carl31

arbroath_lass wrote: »

Well no, many of these things come from other religions so perhaps by religious you actually mean Christian?

not other religions. A lot of modern christmas comes from pagan tradition prior to christianity. Mid winter celebration time has always been celebrated, but not due to a god of any description, as far as i know

arbroath_lass

Carl31 wrote: »

not other religions. A lot of modern christmas comes from pagan tradition prior to christianity. Mid winter celebration time has always been celebrated, but not due to a god of any description, as far as i know

Midwinter celebrations celebrate the rebirth of the sun god, no?

Janepig

skintchick wrote: »

I make no distinctions between levels of untruths. They are all lies.

And of course you are aiming to deceive! You don't believe in FC, you know he doesn't exist, so to tell your child about him your intention is to deceive your child into believing in FC.

You might be perfectly happy with doing it, that's your choice, but it is still lying.

I, on the other hand, do make distinctions between levels of untruths and in fact I think it is more harmful than it is good to persist in always telling the truth no matter what.

And again, "deceive" implies some sort of badness or wrong doing on my part. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Jx

arbroath_lass

Carl31 wrote: »

not other religions. A lot of modern christmas comes from pagan tradition prior to christianity. Mid winter celebration time has always been celebrated, but not due to a god of any description, as far as i know

Saturnalia? In honour of Saturn.

cbrown372

skintchick wrote: »

Dictionary definition of lie:



lie noun

/laɪ/ n [C]

Definition

something that you say which you know is not true

lie verb ( SPEAK FALSELY )

/laɪ/ v

Definition

(lying, lied, lied) to say or write something which is not true in order to deceive someone



Janepig, it definitely is lying. Telling a lie is saying something that is not true, it doesn't matter if it is for what you perceive to be a good reason, it is still a lie.

That's why I made the distinction with religion, because if someone who believes in Allah tells their child about Allah, they are not in thier opinion saying something untrue, nor are they saying it with the intention to deceive, but if you don't believe in FC (and you don't!) then telling your child about it is a lie, because you are intending to deceive them, albeit with the good intentions of magic, joy, etc that everyone keeps talking about.

goodness me, its Christmas, lighten up, peace and goodwill to all men or is that non pc too nowadays.

Whisky and Mum's shortbread left out in our house

Person_one

skintchick wrote: »

I make no distinctions between levels of untruths. They are all lies.

And of course you are aiming to deceive! You don't believe in FC, you know he doesn't exist, so to tell your child about him your intention is to deceive your child into believing in FC.

You might be perfectly happy with doing it, that's your choice, but it is still lying.

Is everything so black and white?

Pretend play and make believe are a hugely important part of child development, and loads of fun. Isn't it better to look at risk/benefit rather than be dogmatic about never lying at all in any way?

splishsplash

skintchick wrote: »

Dictionary definition of lie:



lie noun

/laɪ/ n [C]

Definition

something that you say which you know is not true

lie verb ( SPEAK FALSELY )

/laɪ/ v

Definition

(lying, lied, lied) to say or write something which is not true in order to deceive someone



Janepig, it definitely is lying. Telling a lie is saying something that is not true, it doesn't matter if it is for what you perceive to be a good reason, it is still a lie.

That's why I made the distinction with religion, because if someone who believes in Allah tells their child about Allah, they are not in thier opinion saying something untrue, nor are they saying it with the intention to deceive, but if you don't believe in FC (and you don't!) then telling your child about it is a lie, because you are intending to deceive them, albeit with the good intentions of magic, joy, etc that everyone keeps talking about.

I remember dithering a little when my eldest was a baby, trying to reconcile the 'lie' with desperately wanting to indulge her and be involved with the whole magical bit. After some rumination, these were my conclusions...

Life is not black and white, it is shades of grey. There are degrees of interpretation, there are literal and figurative ways of teaching our children and helping them to become caring, strong, clever adults.

Santa is an allegory. He is the physical manifestation of the spirit of Christmas. Teaching our children to embrace Santa Clause (or any of his incarnations or counterparts in the various cultures) and all he stands for is an age-appropriate way to impart valuable life lessons.
Santa teaches many things, that effort is rewarded, that philanthropy exists, that the community at large can 'collude' as you put it (I personally prefer 'share') in the commitment to show children they are special and deserving of good things, that benevolence and kindness can be beamed at them from all angles, and above all, the lesson of hope. Santa always delivers, never fails, beats all the odds and always comes up trumps.

Not only that, but in time, they come to learn that their parents went to all that trouble for them because they were deserving of it, they get to protect the tradition and pass on the gift to the younger children, to work with everyone else towards a shared ideal.

I love the whole idea of Santa, I have no regrets about propagating and perpetuating the myth with my children. The memories we have created together over the years are magical, and I have difficulty seeing how I could have deprived them of it all. I hope they continue with their children, and in fact, I'm sure they will.