Procedures for Long Term Sick

thelittlestranger

Hey, just a bit confused and worried so looking for some guidance please.

I have been off work now for almost 5 months. It will be nearly 6 by the time my next sick note runs out. Tis has obviously meant I am classed as being off of work on Long Term Sick. So far things have been fine- I have regular meetings at work and now in contact with Occupational Health.

Yesterday I was told that due to the length of time I've been off, I will soon be starting the formal procedure. If after this formal procedure has been exhausted, my contract is "likely" to be terminated.

This has worried me greatly. I don't cope we'll with formal meetings at the best of times, but now it's put me into quite a panicky state.

I have severe anxiety and also depression, which I have had on and off since the age of 10 (now early twenties). Whilst working is not an option right now because of how extreme things can get for me, I don't want to not work. I have had a job since the age of 13 and when I can work, I work hard. The biggest thing though is that whilst my other half does work full time, we both have rent, associated bills to pay for plus we are getting married in April 2013.

I am completely unable to put a timeframe on when I may be able to get back to work despite being asked numerous times (I understand their reasons for this of course). I don't know what to do. Occ health have said if I go back too soon, I may end up being straight off sick again. Bu if I don't rush things a bit, I'll lose my job. I have no idea what to do.

Any ideas? Is this normal for mental health illnesses?

Uncertain

It depends entirely on the policy of your employer. Some would certainly have started making moves before now.

Are you still receiving company sick pay (over and above SSP)?

If you are then the exact terms of your sick pay scheme become relevant. Many are "discretionary" (which basically means they don't have to pay you if they don't want to) but some are a hard and fast contractual right to, say, 6 months full pay then 6 months at half pay. IF it is the latter then they would have to pay you this even if they terminated your employment so there is no real incentive for them to do so (yet).

Given that these days you continue to accrue holiday all the time you are off sick there is a cost to the firm even if you are not getting any pay.

Sadly no firm will keep you on indefinitely. Your pension scheme (if you have one) may have some options should you be unable to return to work.

You have a right to be accompanied by a work colleague or union rep at any formal meetings. If your doctor is willing to certify that attending such meeting would be bad for your health then it may be possible for somebody to act for you.

Peanutmac30

Unfortunately, mental illness is still a grey area for most employers - they don't understand and find it very difficult to deal with. Uncertain is right, no employer will keep you indefinitely regardless of your condition and I would also urge you to get your GP on side.

As a point to note, depression and anxiety can be classed as a disability if it is long term, but you may struggle to prove this to be the case if you did not declare it to your employer when you started working for them.

You can get your GP to certify that you are not fit enough to attend the meeting, but this will only delay proceedings, it will not stop them happening.

I am sorry you are in this situation, it is a tough situation to be in. You may benefit from seeking advice from your local mental health charity - Mind have a brilliant information and support service.

Hope it works out for you.

dori2o

Unfortunately the stigma attached to mental health issues means a lot of employers not only don't understand the problems people face when they are suffering from these issues, but also many tend not to believe that the illness is genuine. You only have to look at some of the posts on this forum to see what some ignorant peoples views of depression and associated illnesses are.

As peanutmac says severe depression or other mental health issues can be classed as disabilities under the Equality Act 2010. This would give you some protection from work, although ultimately if yu cannot return to work, they can terminate your contract on the grounds of capability.

The only body that can give a definitive answer on whether your condition is a disability under the EA2010 would be an employment tribunal, but many employers use the opinion of their Occupational Health advisers (OHA) to provide them with an answer as to whether or not your condition is likely to be covered under the act.

Has your OHA discussed this with you? If not then it might be an idea to discuss it with them and if they agree that you would likely be covered get them to put that in writing to your employer.

Has the OHA discussed any form of return to work?

Your employer would be expected to make reasonable adjustments to facilitate you returning to work, and also once back in work, making adjustments to help you during your time in work.

One such adjustment they could consider would be working reduced hours/days or both just to get you back into a routine. Getting back to work could help you with your anxiety/depression as it would give you something to aim for and would get you being active again.

When i returned to work following a long absence I worked 4 hours a day 3 days a week then gradually increased until I was back to my normal hours.

Is there any possibility that you can work from home? That would give you the opportunity to remain in familiar surroundings where you can control your illness, but also give you the opportunity to again start a routine of doing some productive work.

With regards to the formal meetings, your employer has to give you the opportunity for you to be accompanied either by a Union rep or colleague. You can even allow them to speak on your behalf if you feel uncomfortable doing so.

Are their targets related to your job? is this one of the things you get anxious about? Again your employer could as a reasonable adjustment relax these targets in order to help you to get up to speed with the work again. They could even relax the targets permanently so you are not in a position to get stressed in future.

It maybe worth discussing these suggestions with your OHA and seeing if they think there is an option there for you.

I hope this helps.

thelittlestranger

I really can't thank you enough for all your replies. I don't really know how to multiple quote but will try answer you all as best I can!

I am currently still receiving sick pay from work, though this has been slightly reduced. It will reduce again early next year if I remain off of work.

Occ Health have spoken to me about a return to work and provided recommendations around getting me back 'safely' as so to speak. So this would be reduced hours/days and informal visits until I worked my way back to normal hours, but this would have its limitations due to tax purposes. I don't really understand that aspect of it!

I don't really think I could work from home, because of the need for certain systems that aren't available from home and what not.

Fortunately, I'm not target driven. It's more the general environment that brings me down. I have discussed this with several people but understand that my issues alone can not change office politics and I don't expect anyone to go out of their way for me.

Today I feel really quite down, because I feel this underlying pressure that won't go. My family are telling me to pull myself together and due to still being young, I "should" be working full time and not worrying so much. I wish I could switch it off, I honestly do.

Thanks so much everyone for all your replies. x

Uncertain

It does sound as though your firm's occupational health at least understand the severity of the problem which is a good thing.

It also sounds as though your employer is being fairly understanding. As I said earlier, many would be taking a hard line before now.

What I would generally suggest in these situations it to be gently proactive. It is much better to suggest possible ways forward to the employer rather than sit back and let them make the moves.

If you (plus your family and doctors) can think of any adjustments that would allow you to do even some work it would help all ways round. If the firm reject the suggestion they may end up having to justify why it was not "reasonable".

As dori2o said, why not offer to do some work from home? Now it may not be possible but let the employer say that, don't provide them with an easy get out!

There are organisations who specialise in helping those with mental health issues get back into the workplace. The Richmond Fellowship is one such example. They may be willing to meet your employer on your behalf and act as a mediator.

I do understand how difficult this is. Remember, it is nothing to be ashamed of and is no different to having a physical illness even if it is harder for some people to understand.

System

Writing as an employer. We pay 3 months at full pay, 3 months at half pay, for staff who have worked for 3 years or more. It's shorter periods for more recent staff. After that it's SSP, which lasts for 28 weeks after first going off sick.

An important thing any employer will wish to establish is the prospects of the person ever being fit to resume work, or to resume work within a reasonable time frame. "Reasonable" depends on company size and business. In a two man business struggling to keep afloat it might be a week. In the civil service it might be 5 years. You see my point - no employer can be expected to payroll someone's sickness indefinitely.

What we do is at some point during the full/half pay period write to the person's doctor or consultant, with their permission of course, and pay for a private report to get a proper medical opinion on the person's long term prospects. Unless the person is very likely to respond, or is already reponding, to medical attention, then sadly we have no alternative but to begin the process to terminate his employment by reason of incapacity to do the job.
It's got nothing to with whether the illness is mental or physical, but everything to do with whether the person is likely to be able to resume effectively the job they were engaged for.

Edited - or another suitable job within the company, if it exists

ILW

Clifford_Pope wrote: »

Writing as an employer. We pay 3 months at full pay, 3 months at half pay, for staff who have worked for 3 years or more. It's shorter periods for more recent staff. After that it's SSP, which lasts for 28 weeks after first going off sick.

An important thing any employer will wish to establish is the prospects of the person ever being fit to resume work, or to resume work within a reasonable time frame. "Reasonable" depends on company size and business. In a two man business struggling to keep afloat it might be a week. In the civil service it might be 5 years. You see my point - no employer can be expected to payroll someone's sickness indefinitely.

What we do is at some point during the full/half pay period write to the person's doctor or consultant, with their permission of course, and pay for a private report to get a proper medical opinion on the person's long term prospects. Unless the person is very likely to respond, or is already reponding, to medical attention, then sadly we have no alternative but to begin the process to terminate his employment by reason of incapacity to do the job.
It's got nothing to with whether the illness is mental or physical, but everything to do with whether the person is likely to be able to resume effectively the job they were engaged for.

Edited - or another suitable job within the company, if it exists

A point that many refuse to accept.

Peanutmac30

As a point to note, if your GP signs you fit to return to work on light duties or reduced hours (phased return) you should still receive full pay, based on your contractual sick pay, so not sure what tax complications there would be for you/them.

Your company do have a duty to do their best to accommodate you, so do try and offer as many solutions as you can, it is then up to them to give you reasons why this wont work.

On a personal level, I understand that working is important to you, but your health is more important. If your work environment is contributing to your depression, I would strongly recommend that you consider other options. This can be a tough decision to face, but if you can find the strength within to take control of the situation a little, it may well help you emotionally.

Take care x

Uncertain

Peanutmac30 wrote: »

Your company do have a duty to do their best to accommodate you, so do try and offer as many solutions as you can, it is then up to them to give you reasons why this wont work.

I'm afraid they don't actually.

If the OP had a disability (in law) then they would have to make "reasonable adjustments" but these often don't go as far as people would like to think.

Regarding the "fit note", the firm is under no obligation to comply with any suggestions the doctor makes. They could exercise their right to say no and simply treat the OP as off sick. They don't have to offer a reason.

In this case it does sound as though the employer is actually being more understanding that the law requires. All the OP can do is to attempt to work with them and keep the goodwill as far as possible.

CFC

Uncertain wrote: »

I'm afraid they don't actually.

If the OP had a disability (in law) then they would have to make "reasonable adjustments" but these often don't go as far as people would like to think.

Regarding the "fit note", the firm is under no obligation to comply with any suggestions the doctor makes. They could exercise their right to say no and simply treat the OP as off sick. They don't have to offer a reason.

In this case it does sound as though the employer is actually being more understanding that the law requires. All the OP can do is to attempt to work with them and keep the goodwill as far as possible.

Spot on. Reasonable adjustments for disability, but no requirement to comply with fit note requests.
So what are reasonable adjustments?

A few examples
Working a different shift
Working reduced hours for a specific period of time
Excluding certain duties for a specific period of time

In fact your OH has suggested reduced hours.

You need to wake up to the fact that you need to provide a timeframe to your employer or you need to make plans as to how you will survive without your sickpay, because your employer is certainly not going to keep you on simply because you have rent to pay...it sounds harsh but I think you can probably understand the way they see it.

It makes no difference whether it is a physical or a mental disability by the way.