Selling unwanted train tickets

JennyP

I think the whole question of what is law and what are morals is probably too big a topic for here.
No, I don't advocate or condone breaking the law. But I do think that some big companies, including those who provide essential services such as travel, utilities, drugs and food often behave within the law but entirely immorally.
Didn't meant to open such a can of worms when I innocently asked if I could sell my rail tickets on! Not knowing that it was illegal, by the way! Halifax to London return if anyone is interested

WickedWolfie

JennyP wrote: »

Morals?!!! I can't help feeling that these laws are not meant to protect us, the consumers, but to protect the big businesses who make money off us. You can get a decent rail fare if you book ahead but you risk plans changing and not being able to use the ticket. Or you can wait till nearer the event, and pay an extortionate amount!

Jenny

You may or may not be right. However, what the law, and indeed the broadly similar rules - admittedly not laws - which airlines have to effectively stop transfer of the cheapest available tickets, does is prevent big business hoovering up all of the cheapest tickets the moment they go on sale (probably using computerised systems) and then selling them on for a profit (cf pop concert tickets etc).

Sharon87

When were you intending to travel, will you be travelling again to the same place? You can change the tickets for a £10 fee, you could wait until the day before you're suppose to travel to rearrange it.

That would be the best option. I had this when my dad was going into hospital, his appointment was rearranged, so we changed it for another possible date, then it got postponed again! We went up anyway, didn't want to waste the tickets or spend another £10 getting them changed.

wealdroam

Sharon87 wrote: »

When were you intending to travel, will you be travelling again to the same place? You can change the tickets for a £10 fee, you could wait until the day before you're suppose to travel to rearrange it.

But that £10 fee is per ticket.

Also, leaving until the day before travel means that tickets for travel the next day may be significantly more expensive and you would have to pay that difference too.

From their terms...

Advance fares are valid only on the date and train shown on the ticket and are non-refundable. You can change the time or date of travel before departure of the first reserved train.
Any difference in fare and an administration fee will be payable.

Note the "any difference in fare" bit in the last sentence.

Man_Overboard_2

I am a bit confused by the concept of 'transferring' a train ticket from one 'owner' to another.

I have never bought an advance ticket, so maybe there is a different procedure, but I have never been asked to provide a name for the intended user of a ticket, and I have never noticed that any ticket I have bought has a unique identifier.

If I buy a ticket on behalf of somebody else, then do I become the ticket's owner? If so, then when I give the ticket to the intended user, am I breaking the law?

dggar

Man_Overboard wrote: »

I am a bit confused by the concept of 'transferring' a train ticket from one 'owner' to another.

I have never bought an advance ticket, so maybe there is a different procedure, but I have never been asked to provide a name for the intended user of a ticket, and I have never noticed that any ticket I have bought has a unique identifier.

If I buy a ticket on behalf of somebody else, then do I become the ticket's owner? If so, then when I give the ticket to the intended user, am I breaking the law?

Here is an old thread from RailUK forums that may help.
(It may confuse you even more)

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61108

Stigy

Man_Overboard wrote: »

I am a bit confused by the concept of 'transferring' a train ticket from one 'owner' to another.

I have never bought an advance ticket, so maybe there is a different procedure, but I have never been asked to provide a name for the intended user of a ticket, and I have never noticed that any ticket I have bought has a unique identifier.

If I buy a ticket on behalf of somebody else, then do I become the ticket's owner? If so, then when I give the ticket to the intended user, am I breaking the law?

The Byelaw for transferring the ticket, and indeed the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 in a lot of cases, is in place so that one person doesn't seek to defraud the TOC of any revenue. This could be the case if you're selling the ticket that you have already bought, to another person, thus that person doesn't pay the operator for a ticket, but you instead, if that makes sense. In other words, you're in effect, using the ticket twice but paying once.

If you buy a ticket for a family member or friend or something, you've committed no offence because the ticket is being used only once, by the person whom the ticket has been purchased for, and as such your intention is amicable. If you decide to sell them the ticket though, well that can be deemed as fraud, as you're selling them a ticket you bought (maybe higher priced or cheaper...), and could be seen as taking potential revenue from the company, which the person you sold the ticket to, would otherwise have paid.The thing is, as you rightly point out, each ticket rarely ties back to an individual unless it's a season ticket, therefore, proving such an offence can prove troublesome. For starters there's almost never going to be reason to doubt a person is using their ticket fraudulently, so circumstances such as this one, are nye on impossible to detect should the OP decide to sell their ticket online or whatever.

Man_Overboard_2

dggar wrote: »

Here is an old thread from RailUK forums that may help.
(It may confuse you even more)

Thanks. I read the first page on the link, and the discussion seemed to be mainly about the possibility of re-selling unclipped tickets after they have already been used by the original purchaser.

The OP on this MSE thread was not considering this (and it had not even occurred to me as a possibility), and it does indeed seem very reasonable for the rail companies to object to their tickets being used twice!

Man_Overboard_2

Stigy wrote: »

If you buy a ticket for a family member or friend or something, you've committed no offence because the ticket is being used only once, by the person whom the ticket has been purchased for, and as such your intention is amicable. If you decide to sell them the ticket though, well that can be deemed as fraud

Understood, but I would expect my family member or friend to 'buy' the ticket from me for the same price which I had paid.

Stigy

Man_Overboard wrote: »

Understood, but I would expect my family member or friend to 'buy' the ticket from me for the same price which I had paid.

I see what you're saying.

Realistically you'll be okay as the ticket is being used only once, and that'll be easy enough to prove. No intention to defraud, and no selling using eBay or Gumtree or whatever. No reason to believe any foul play occurring.

The Railway Byelaws are still black and white really, but common sense needs to prevail somewhere. It's illegal to sell a ticket in an unauthorised manner, but what is 'unauthorised'? Any place other than a member of rail staff or a Ticket Vending Machine really, although a family member buying a ticket for a fellow family member, or a friend etc, because they haven't the time to get one themselves? I'd say that's authorised as long as nobody is being defrauded in any way and the ticket was legitimately bought in the first place.

I'd like to see a breach of Byelaw 21 go to the Magistrates' Court in such circumstances.