Bit of an odd one-should I be asking for pay?

fourthlinewing

Hey all,
I tend to lurk around here without posting, but have noticed that there's a lot of level-headed people on here and wondering if anyone has any advice:

Am currently out of (paid) work, although I'm hunting around for jobs and currently waiting to hear back from several, including the BBC's Journalist Training Scheme which starts in March.

My question is:
Given that I'm not working and struggling for money, is it reasonable to ask to become a paid employee when something you do as a volunteer for a business (not a charity) becomes successful?

Some background here:

My dream career is to work as a sports journalist, particularly in ice hockey (I know-tricky in the UK).

In order to further this, I currently commentate on live Internet broadcasts of games in the UK Elite League (like the Premiership, but for hockey) for my local team in Coventry. The team started offering this (pay) service a few years ago, and I started doing it as a volunteer because, frankly, I love the sport and the job.

It was originally fairly small (used to get about 10 people watching) but over the time I've been doing it, I've managed to build myself a reputation as one of the best in Europe at what I do....which I'm pretty proud of. The games are filmed by a small outside production company who have a contract with the team and get paid, but I don't as I'm a volunteer for the team.

Anyway-to cut a long story short, thanks to a combination of my hard work promoting it on Twitter/forums and the cameraman's hard work filming it, plus me managing to build myself a rep as the best at what I do, it's now watched by an average of about 90 people a week at 8 quid a throw...so it's a decent earner for someone.

Just noticed that the team are now selling DVDs of games, and using my commentary on it as a selling point-also at eight quid a throw.

I have a very good relationship with people within the team, and the guy who I work with this season (who is a paid sports journalist in his "proper" job) has already said to the team that he thinks I should be getting paid for this cause I'm worth a ton to them.

The club have in the past argued they don't have enough to pay when I started. But now I'm not so sure the case (revenue is, I believe, split 50/50 between team and prod company and so I worked out the average money the club make is at around £350 a game, compared to roughly £35 a game when there was no commentary) and they're nowusing my efforts as a selling point to make further money off merchandising and sponsorship-is it reasonable in MSEers eyes for me to turn round to the club and go..."hang on a minute, you're making a ton off my work-I'd like a little cut of it"

The club argue that I'm getting into games for free (worth around £350 a season) and my fiancee could also (she lives in NI though, so doesn't get to many and when she does she refuses to take a freebie anyway) and also get a free ticket to the end of season do (worth a tenner) so in their eyes that's fair.

Me...I was fine doing it as a volunteer until they started using my work as a selling point on merchandising...friends/family have been telling me for months that I should be asking for a cut, but I'm worried they'll go all arsey with me if I do and I'll lose something I love doing.

But, on the other hand, the "benefits" they give are a financial cost they've made back in the first week of me doing it this season-which to me makes me think that they're starting to take the mick.

What would you do?

miduck

Ask, but be aware that this is excellent experience, and however good you think you are, there is no doubt someone equally good to replace you.

Also be aware that, if you are claiming JSA, anything earned over £5 will be deducted from your entitlement.

serious_saver

It is incredible experience but I agree that you should be looking to get something more for your work. Their revenue is still not massive so you probably shouldn't expect a lot but you could ask them about some expenses to compensate you for travel, food etc. If they hire you as either an employee or a contractor they will need to set up contracts etc and they may not believe this is cost effective.

If you want to be a journalist then take the opportunity to strengthen links with the production company making the DVD as well.

Recently there has been a big shift in both broadcasting and the print press to multi-skilled self-shooters. See if you can get involved with the editing and final production of the piece. Perhaps the production company will offer you some editing experience and voice-over work.

If you are not already a member then join the NUJ who can give you a lot more advice on the legal side of things. If you are a member then get on to your regional rep for advice.

. . . and good luck with the trainee scheme. I hope you get some positive news from it!

duchy

It's still a pretty small audience -and the costs of processing even a small amount of pay need to be added on -plus the fact you won't actually benefit much financially -I think you'd be better off asking them if they would consider covering "expenses" eg cost of travel to the games, food and drink whilst "working" and avoid falling out with them.

I'd ask for a few free DVDs for yourself too. Useful to send with resumes or to transfer to a show reel when promoting yourself to prospective real employers.

fourthlinewing

miduck wrote: »

Ask, but be aware that this is excellent experience, and however good you think you are, there is no doubt someone equally good to replace you.

Fair point-but my argument to that would be that there are probably very few people in Britain with the specialist knowledge of both the sport (I play and coach ice hockey as well so can see it from both a viewer and a player side) and the politics/leagues/players all over the world, some of which is fairly arcane (certainly I've been told by players I've interviewed that I'm more knowledgeable then some of the "experts" in this country who get paid to do it.

Obviously if they turn round and say "no chance" then so be it-I'm not going to turn round and throw away the experience I'm getting over what'll likely be only a few tens of quid a week if I'm lucky.

To all those who've mentioned expenses-I do get into the home games free but that's pretty much it...and it's home games only (the rink's about a mile from my house and I can walk it). Might try and get a free bus ticket a week out of them, though.

Also thank you for the advice re free DVDs for a showreel/getting involved with the editing etc-that was something I hadn't even considered. The highlights are posted on youtube so have linked to them when looking for advice in the past and used them as a portfolio, but never thought of a full DVD showreel...:)

Pricivius

I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but it may be worth looking into who owns the intellectual rights to your "performances". If you were employed, then your employer usually has ownership and can do what they like with your work, subject to the contract. But as you are a volunteer, presumably without any formal agreement, would you retain the copyright to your work? If so, by producing the DVDs and selling them, have they breached your copyright?

As others have said, I think it's small pickings on the cash front and I'm guessing that there isn't megabucks in the UK ice hockey scene? Maybe see your work as promoting the sport you love and supporting your team in the best way you can and keep building your fan base for the better things to come?

fourthlinewing

Pricivius wrote: »

I could be barking up the wrong tree here, but it may be worth looking into who owns the intellectual rights to your "performances". If you were employed, then your employer usually has ownership and can do what they like with your work, subject to the contract. But as you are a volunteer, presumably without any formal agreement, would you retain the copyright to your work? If so, by producing the DVDs and selling them, have they breached your copyright?

This is something I've never been sure of-have been told in the past that because they're "allowing" me to "perform" by commentating on their games they own the copyright even though I'm a volunteer (a status which they've always been keen to emphasise and I've never had a written contract of any kind)

However-have had a quick look and these appear to back me up as the copyright holder (and therefore able to get defensive over them selling DVDs).

From http://www.wcva-ids.org.uk/wcva/1081

One question which has arisen recently is ‘who owns the copyright to volunteers’ work?’ The answer is ‘the volunteer, unless it is clearly stated that the intellectual property rights pass to the organisation.’ Volunteers often have a valuable role in creating plans, photographs or data. Under a contract of employment the copyright for such material created by an employee for the employer during working hours will pass to the employer. However, under a genuine volunteering arrangement there is no such implied transfer of copyright.

Also found this article from a copyright lawyer which seems to argue the same:

http://www.copyrightlaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Lesley-PDF2.pdf

I don't suppose there are any copyright lawyers on MSE, are there?

I should point out that I'm not expecting megabucks/a living wage from this...the original question was asked purely cause as soon as I saw they were selling stuff with my voice on it and I told people this, their instant reaction was..."now they are taking the mick...they should at least be giving you something for it especially as you're not working" and I was wondering whether this was friends/family going over the top so thought I'd ask for a detached opinion from a decent bunch of people on the Internet.

All the advice has been very helpful indeed so far-so thanks to all who've posted.

colino

With the tiny amount of income from this (and I'm sure you will have signed away your commentating rights already) there really isn't enough for the cake to be sliced up any further. By all means as they are using you in promotion discuss a stepped performance payment (more fans, more pay) but I think at the moment this is just good for your CV and showreel.

gibson123

You could try inventing a paid job offer that would mean you were not available when required and say you can't really afford not to do it and would they be willing to pay you for your time so you could be available?

I do think you should get some kind of royalty, I assume the commentry is all yours and no-one else is writing for you.