Employment Tribunal Advice needed please

kazzah60

all of this saga just reassures me that my husband accepting the very paltry payout his former employer offered along with a factual reference, rather than attend his employment tribunal

he too was dismissed for reasons which were "made up" - but we knew we couldn't actually PROVE those reasons at the time
his employer dismissed him 10 months after his started the job, clearly believing that because he hadn't completed 12 months service ( at the time the 2 year rule wasn't applicable) they were "safe"

fortunately we had access via our household insurance to legal advice and after wrangling with them over who provided us with the service we employed an excellent solicitor who like my husband felt the reasons were a mockery.

we instigated tribunal proceedings and despite delay after delay by the respondents ( including lying and saying the CEO was desperately ill in hospital following a stoke) after reading our evidence they offered a settlement

would we have got more at a Tribunal - our lawyer said probably not as his employers were a charity and funded by external agencies so a Tribunal would probably not make a huge award and we decided a bird in the hand was worth 2 in the bush.

my hubby has been somewhat vindicated this week when we learned that the funding for the charity has been withdrawn and suspended pending several investigations by the grant making organisations and the local authority into mis-management of the organisation and funds.

sometimes - you have to sit back and look at the bigger picture
the OP was NOT dismissed for whistle blowing - but for the contact with the children

was that the REASON behind her dismissal - probably not from what has been posted- but the fact of the matter is she was unable to PROVE that...................and really that's all that matters to the ET

sorry for you OP

SarEl

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

OP, I think you are being deliberately disingenuous.

Regardless of what was said at the appeal regarding it being a Child Protection issue or not, that is just semantics - it most definitely was a Safe-guarding issue, and I do not believe with all your years in the teaching profession, that you did not realise this. You may choose not to accept it, but that is entirely different.

But even that is irrelevant.

Bottom line.

You were instructed by your employer not to breach the terms of your suspension (which your employer was entitled to set, and which did not differ from those of any other employer in this situation). You took a deliberate and considered decision to ignore those instructions which could not have been made clearer - and in fact were repeated seven times.

Either you are so arrogant that you think your employer cannot tell you what to do; have delusions that you are untouchable; or are just plain stupid.

I don't think you are stupid.

I concur. The OP is clearly not stupid. I cannot imagine what led them to believe that they could simply ignore the conditions of their suspension, but this brought the dimissal upon their own head. I can understand possibly why someone might, in the heat of the momemt, fail to recognise a failure in judgement. I cannot comprehend why someone would fail to recognise a faliure in judgement several times over and again. And still fail to recognise it.

OP - these "disadvantaged children" presumably came from "disadvantaged homes" in which the parents either did not know or understand the implications either to you, as a teacher suspended from duty and banned from contact with pupils; or even the potential implications to their children of continued contact with a teacher suspended from duty for reasons which could only be viewed as possibly serious.

At what point did you decide that you knew better than everyone else and should be permitted to act as you wished? And why? You cannot possibly have been ignorant of the danger in which you were placing yourself. Or the precarious situation in which you placed these children by your continued involvement with them after clear instructions to desist such contact. Are you saying that you are wholly oblivious to safeguarding issues, to the press and media, and to the sort of gossip that transpires inevitably when these sorts of attachments are formed? As a teacher it is your job to undersatnd such issues.

I think we all have sympathy for the position you have found yourself in. But that does not extend to supporting a delusional view of life or profession. You continue to attempt to defend the indefensible - you simply should not have done what you did, and you put yourself at risk and you put these children at risk. You may not have been a risk to them - but you put them at risk nonetheless. You were not their teacher. You were not conducting a school approved activity. You were not acting in any position of authority or trust. You were suspended and banned from contact with pupils. And you knew that.

cquinn60

SarEl

You seem to be taking this very personally. You don't know me yet you judge me as a threat to children. I had known these families very well for 4 years and taught the boys' siblings too.

These are not the only disadvantaged children I have helped in my teaching career. I went into teaching to help children just like these boys. Children need hope. They need to know that there are opportunities for them out there, whatever their start in life, and they often need a helping hand. Don't decide you have the measure of me.

You have made your point quite clear - I should not have refused the Head's instructions 7 times, thank you. Do you think the Head told me 7 times because she was worried about the boys? Do you think she cared what would happen to them if I did not chaperone them? For all the time it took her to send me 7 letters do you think she could have found a way to help the boys?

You have given your views on the law, and I thank your for that. Please do not now make a personal attack on me or my motives. You don't know why I was suspended, you don't know whether the allegations against me were true and you don't know what the Head teacher was capable of.

Furthermore, do you think if I had heeded the 'advice' of the Head, and let the boys down, that I would not be in the same situation I am now? You are going to leap to the Head's defence and say you cannot possibly know what was in her mind and neither can I. However, everyone here seems to know what is in my mind. I do know what was in her mind. I have seen what she is capable of and what she has done to others. She would have kept going and following everyone's logic here she could have come up with another 'procedurally correct' allegation, and I would have had to accept that too? She was determined to punish me. You have to take my word on this.

What scares me is that I know her and know what she is capable of. I have no doubt that, if she didn't get me for breaching the terms of my suspension, then the next allegation could have been far worse.

By this stage, in a very long campaign to try and pay me back, I had nothing to lose, the boys did. The decision to dismiss me had already been made. They were not going to become her victims too.

Pricivius

OP - on this thread and your other thread elsewhere you have had advice from at least three legally trained people with employment law experience. You asked us for advice with you Tribunal to explain what happened and whether you have grounds for appeal. A lawyer's role is to apply the law to situations such as this, to take an unbiased view and try and see the matter from all sides, to weigh up the issues and offer advice. This has happened by at least three people independently and they have all reached the same conclusions for roughly the same reasons. I am sorry this is not what you wanted to hear but it would be completely wrong to give you false hope or mislead you.

It is often very difficult for Claimants to see the wood for the trees as they are too closely involved and emotionally invested in the claim. You are clinging on to issues which are irrelevant from a legal point of view - and that is what you asked us to advise on. If you put yourself in the shoes of a neutral, the position regarding safeguarding/child protection issues when seen from the point of view of the school is that they have a suspended teacher repeatedly ignoring instructions to leave the kids alone - in those circumstances, on the face of it, you were putting yourself and those children at risk. You know they were safe, but as you well know, that is simply not enough. This is not an attack on you and would be the same for any employee who was suspended and banned from contacting pupils.

It seems to me that you found yourself in a difficult position and became too entrenched to dig your way out. Please look to move on from this as I really don't see that you ahve anywhere to go with it.

SarEl

cquinn60 wrote: »

You seem to be taking this very personally. You don't know me yet you judge me as a threat to children.

I am sorry OP, but I made no personal attack on or judgement of you. It is you that is taking this personally. I have at no point in time said that your were a threat to children. I have said that your refusal to obey lawful and reasonable instructions was a safe-guarding issue and that you should have known better than to do so - both personally and professionally. I seen no point in continuing this debate. We have tried to explain you you why what happened, both at the tribunal and in the disciplinary, happened the way it did. You are intent on "proving" your own version of the events, and cannot see that this version, true or not, is not relevant to either.

I would agree with Pricivius, and echo what I told you elsewhere - it is in your best interests to move on and put this behind you.

Uncertain

cquinn60 wrote: »

SarEl

You seem to be taking this very personally. You don't know me yet you judge me as a threat to children.

Oh for heaven's sake. No of course she doesn't!

cquinn60 wrote: »

She was determined to punish me. You have to take my word on this.

What scares me is that I know her and know what she is capable of. I have no doubt that, if she didn't get me for breaching the terms of my suspension, then the next allegation could have been far worse.

By this stage, in a very long campaign to try and pay me back, I had nothing to lose, the boys did. The decision to dismiss me had already been made. They were not going to become her victims too.

OK, let us assume that is all 100% true.

Had they dismissed you for made up allegations you would at least have had right on your side and would have had a decent chance of successfully defending the case.

Instead you handed them a cast iron case on a plate, can you not see that? You knew they were "out to get you" yet you behaved in a way that would justify the dismissal of ANY teacher. It doesn't matter how virtuous, innocent or well intentioned your actions were. You say they were making up reasons to sack you and yet you gave them SEVEN real ones. You must be able to see that surely?

Do you actually have any hard evidence of this person's wrongdoings?

Are they crimes? If so, have you reported them to the police?

Are they breaches of policy or procedures? If so, have you reported them to the proper authority?

Are they such that the General Teaching Council would take action? If so, have you made a formal complaint?

Or, are they simply differences of opinion as to how the school should be run?

Are any curent staff likely to back you up? (Generally unlikely due to self interest). What about former staff? Current or former parents? Former pupils who are now adults?

Realistically, regardless of the rights and wrongs, without some hard evidence AND support you are going to get nowhere.

There is an old Chinese proverb.....

"Before setting out for revenge, first dig two graves". I suggest you think about it.

Sorry!

Sambucus_Nigra

I saw Uncertain's first response and thought 'SarEl will get this'. And she did.

The crux of the tribunal was that you were fairly dismissed because you gave them a reason to be able to dismiss you. The tribunal was only going to be about the fairness of your dismissal.

What is it you want out of this bearing in mind where you are now?

denla

Reason OP is arrogantly refusing to believe she's lost the case and there's nothing she can do anymore...

She's no longer able to teach. Most jobs requiring CRB check are also out of her reach now that she's been dismissed for gross misconduct for contacting vulnerable children during suspension, despite being warned 7 times.

OP's been hit hard and powerless to do anything. Makes a sane person go mad when you know your future is cleaning toilets or remaining unemployed whilst on JSA.

flashnazia

Uncertain wrote: »

Had they dismissed you for made up allegations you would at least have had right on your side and would have had a decent chance of successfully defending the case.

Instead you handed then a cast iron case on a plate, can you not see that? You knew they were "out to get you" yet you behaved in a way that would justify the dismissal of ANY teacher. It doesn't matter how virtuous, innocent or well intentioned your actions were. You say they were making up reasons to sack you and you gave them SEVEN real ones. You must be able to see that surely?

^^^ this ^^^^

Nobody is making this personal op. The people on this board are trying to help you with clear and honest advice.

Uncertain

flashnazia wrote: »

^^^ this ^^^^

Nobody is making this personal op. The people on this board are trying to help you with clear and honest advice.

Thanks but now you put my quote in bold I've spotted the typo in my post!