Employer not giving contracted hours

zzzLazyDaisy

Hi, I only said 'once she's back at work' because that's usually when return to work interviews etc are carried out, but yes, by all means, if she's up to sorting things out before she goes back, so much the better.

One thing to consider. Since she is on sick leave for stress related illness - especially for such an illness that is related to work - it is reasonable to ask for any meetings that take place while she is still off sick to be held somewhere neutral away from the office. Many HR departments will simply defer such meetings until the employee is fit to return to work, but if the HR manager is willing to meet with her while she is on sick leave, they may well agree to do a home visit - in which case, what you do in your own home is your call, and it would be unusual for a HR manager to refuse to allow you to sit in on the meeting in those circumstances. Just a thought.

Dx

j-josie

It's a nice thought but we live 90 mins drive away so I doubt HR are going to want to come to us. DD doesn't live with us normally and has only come home as circumstances indicated she needed to get right away to a quiet place with no stress triggers..
And it seems to have worked well - although she has BPD she says other areas of her life are stable - it was the treatment at work and the financial hardship that the withdrawal of her hours caused that brought her to this despair.
But thanks for your input. You have given us plenty to think about. We are just slightly worried that it has to get worse before it gets better, in that she has to have it out with her employers,but it has to be done.

j-josie

Talking to her we realise that she will not be in a fit state to return to work on 22 Dec. Talk of meetings etc has been bravado and the veneer came crashing down tonight...
She is worried about her entitlement to sick pay though so to try and allay her fears, she and I are going to call HR tomorrow and ask them to clarify what rate of sick pay she will get. If they say wages records indicate she hasn't earned sufficient over the last 8 weeks, we'll draw their attention to the 30 hour week contract and see how that develops.
She is to be given a social worker which will hopefully help and other therapies etc, so will also investigate with them what her financial position would be if she was unable to return to work on a 30 hour basis.
At present, it is the thought of having to face the manager which just un-nerves her and puts her in a panicky state. Think she would be best to leave things until after Christmas when hopefully she will feel stronger about things..

zzzLazyDaisy

Hi Josie, her health has to come first.

What I suggest you do is that you phone HR while she is with you. Get her to speak to them to give them permission to speak to you, and then have a chat with HR, while she is there with you. If you have a smart phone you can put it on speaker phone so you can both speak.

I would urge you to make a note of the bullet points of what you want to say, and stick to it. This is an emotional and stressful time for you, and you need to be calm, reasonable, and to the point when you speak to HR. Also you don't need to go into a lot of detail about your daughter's condition over the phone. You just need to keep it short and simple.

So you might say that your daughter is in hospital after having a breakdown, which is believed to be related to problems at work. You might say that you don't have all the details yet as she is too ill to discuss things at the moment, but that the reduction in her hours has caused her a lot of stress and financial hardship, and this is believed to have contributed to her current state of health.

At this stage, you need to be very calm and very neutral. You only have your daughter's side of the story. It is possible that she has been 'going off' for a while (sorry that is a term my family use, but I hope you know what I mean) and it *may* be that her work has been affected in ways that you don't know about.

Do be aware that it is *possible* that your daughter hasn't been attending work because she couldn't cope, rather than her manager actually cutting her hours (I am not saying this is actually the case, just that at the moment you don't have the full picture, so you need to keep calm and see how the conversation goes).

So try to avoid making allegations or accusations about the manager, those discussions can come later. For the moment I suggest that you stick to the bare bones.

Ask what her sick pay entitlement is. If she has been earning under the NI limit she may not be strictly entitled to SSP - but often large companies are not strict about this, as they can't claim SSP back anyway, and if it is a full-timer who has temporarily been worker shorter hours, they will often pay SSP anyway. So I suggest that you go into the conversation with the assumption that this will be paid until you are told otherwise.

If she is not entitled to SSP for any reason, you should ask them to send her form SSP1 immediately, which will enable her to claim ESA. If she has rent/CT to pay, you should phone the LA and make claims for LHA and CTB (the social worker will hopefully be able to help you with this).

I suggest that you notify HR of her temporary change of address to your house, to make sure that she does get any work related mail (in any case, she may wish to consider a short term re-direction of mail through the post office).

I also strongly suggest that you set up a meeting with HR before she returns to work. I wouldn't be too concerned about the fact that you live 90 mins away - a large employer will do a home visit, and if not, you can ask for the meeting to take place at a neutral venue closer to work - a local hotel for instance. But it sounds like that is a step or two away yet.

The main thing is to keep the employer informed, and to submit fit-notes (formerly sick notes) regularly and on time. This is very important. It may be helpful for your daughter to have a longer sick note, taking her over christmas and into the new year. This will remove the pressure of planning for an imminent return to work from her, and create a 'fire break' so she can focus on recovering.

I am sorry you and she are going through such a difficult time.

Dx

Uncertain

Really excellent advice from Daisy.

Nothing I can usefully add other than to wish you well.

j-josie

Thank you Lazy Daisy for that excellent advice.
I did ring HR to check on her sick pay status and they have confirmed that she will get SSP while she is off.
I did ask about her not getting contracted hours and they were very blas! ! about that - said it's not uncommon - and that as she worked the lesser hours she was deemed to have accepted the change.
( I find it hard to get my head around that...but will need to see the actual contract - seems to operate like a zero hours contract but why specify 30 hours if it means nothing?)
So it seems she will get no support from them. The remaining issue will be that if this to happen it should be shared fairly among all the staff,and that doesn't appear to be the case. Such as someone with a 16 hour contract getting 30 hours every week, and someone new being taken on for 30 hours a week while DD having her shifts cut.
I do take your point about getting only 1 side of the story..and it is hard when dealing with someone with BPD as they can have a very skewed vision of things. (We don't use ' going off' in our house - we have 'DD' when things are going well and 'scabby DD' when she is 'going off' )
And just to top things off, I had a prang in my car yesterday.
merry Xmas,bah humbug!

getmore4less

Check the contract.

zzzLazyDaisy

j-josie wrote: »

Thank you Lazy Daisy for that excellent advice.
I did ring HR to check on her sick pay status and they have confirmed that she will get SSP while she is off.
I did ask about her not getting contracted hours and they were very blas! ! about that - said it's not uncommon - and that as she worked the lesser hours she was deemed to have accepted the change.
( I find it hard to get my head around that...but will need to see the actual contract - seems to operate like a zero hours contract but why specify 30 hours if it means nothing?)

Hi Josie

Well I am pleased that she will get her SSP, so at least that is one less thing to worry about. Do check that she is getting any other benefits she is entitled to (LHA and council tax benefit for example). It might also be worth enquiring into DLA.

Re the hours. She/you need to get on top of this quickly.

First you need to check her contract. It will give her contracted hours, but it will probably also say somewhere in the contract that the employer reserves the right to make changes, and should specify how those changes will be made (one month's written notice, or whatever). This is often the last paragraph, or towards the end.

You may not find anything in the contract about her accepting the change because she has worked the lesser hours - that is an operation of general law. But the important point is that she must have worked the new hours without protest. So to some extent it depends how long this has been going on for and what she has done up to now in the way of asking for this to be sorted out, or complaining about it to her manager, or someone higher up or in HR.

What they cannot do is hide behind this blanket 'deemed acceptance' if she clearly does not accept it, and they do have a duty to make reasonable adjustments if she has a 'disability' under the EA. There is a limit to what can be done to help over an internet forum, so I do urge you to try and get her social worker/CPN/DIAL worker, involved. You may also wish to speak to ACAS (but please insist on speaking to a concilliation officer for mediation assistance on a workplace issue, as the telephone advice can be very hit and miss, and the advisers are not up to dealing with this sort of situation).

In the meantime we will do what we can from here.

Firstly, please can you answer the following questions as best as you can (don't hassle your DD at the moment, just tell me what you know yourself).

1 when did the cut in hours start?
2 has she said anything to her manager about it?
3 has she put anything in writing to the company about it?
4 how long was it between the hours being cut and her being admitted to hospital?
5 before this, did the company know about her BPD? This might be formally, on her application form, or informally by verbally telling her manager, or perhaps she has previously had time off sick for this?
6 finally how long has she worked for the company (sorry if you have already told us this, I don't have time to read the thread. Also the length of employment isn't as crucial here as in some other cases, but I want to get the full picture).

If you can give us the above info, we can help you to write a letter to HR about the hours and the effect this is having on her - it is called a 'letter of protest' and it is very important that this is done to halt the 'deemed acceptance' rule. But the effectiveness will vary depending on whether this has been going on for six weeks or six months.

You and you DD don't need this, and while you/she should certainly do everything possible to turn the situation around at work..... the reality is that the law can only protect her in any practical sense if the manager/employer is on board and willing to comply with their obligations - so she may need to seriously consider looking for alternative employment in the longer run. But that is no reason to let them get away with treating her like this, so let's at least do what we can.

Hugs

Dx

j-josie

Lazy Daisy, it's so good of you to give us the benefit of your knowledge. The answers are
1. Think it's been about 3 or 4 months
2. Yes, she has told her manager she has a 30 hour contract and that the cut is causing financial hardship and increasing her anxiety
3. No
4. 3 to 4 months
5. manager was advised verbally of condition from the outset. And I think DD gave her a leaflet on the condition. She has not had certificated time off before, just a very occasional day sick leave
6. 2 years
Once she gets back to her own home ( next week hopefully) she will start organising the social worker contact plus the other therapies on offer. Am hoping the social worker will be savvy on how to offer practical help.
I am aware that 'mum' may not necessarily be the best person to help in this crisis but we can send her on her way with the security that she has her family's support behind her.

zzzLazyDaisy

Hi Josie

It is very important that someone writes to the employer without delay and makes it clear that she does not accept the reduction in her contracted hours, and that she made her manager aware of this, and also of the financial problems that the cut in her hours was causing her. That the manager was also aware of her BPD, and that the stress of the work situation has resulted in a breakdown in her health, and her being admitted to hospital. In those circumstances it should be very clear the the employer that she did not accept the change in her hours.

It is unlikely that your daughter is going to be well enough to face that sort of confrontation at the moment, so someone will probably have to write a letter on her behalf to hold the situation. Obviously, that would have to be with her knowledge and consent. Since you spoke to HR, there is no reason why you cannot write to confirm the conversation, and set the record straight. Alternatively the social worker, the CAB, or some other adviser can do this for her. What is important is that the employer is told, in writing, without delay.

The legal term for this is notifying the employer that the employee is 'working under protest'. Normally the employee should do this as soon as they are notified of the change to their contractual terms - although she may not have been given any formal notice of the change in her hours?

Anyway, the point is that she does now have official notice from the employer, to you, that the change to her contractual hours is considered by them to be permanent and accepted by her, so it is important that she - or someone acting on her behalf - acts quickly.

Let us know if you want help to write a letter.

Dx