Feedback on serious breach of health & safety - charge & allowance?

BarrelScraper

So imagine a yard/warehouse type of environment with fork lift trucks.

Obviously, lifting a person up on the forks (where they're physically stood ON the forks) is a serious breach of health & safety. I'm not sure on the charge for this, but i would imagine it'd be gross misconduct & therefore instant dismissal?

Besides, we've already been briefed about this & anyone to be lifted needs to be inside a man-cage. This still goes on in the workplace (not by me).

The problem comes when the person telling you to lift them is the boss (owner of the company).
If you go ahead with it - you're breaking company policy & health & safety.
If you refuse - you're disobeying an order from the managing director which leads to disciplinary process.

So you're stuck in the middle.

Worst case scenario is you lift the person up, they slip, fall & die. When the investigation is done with, i don't imagine anyone is going to come to you/me & say don't worry about it, it's not your fault.



I've asked someone to look into it who came back to me & said that if i was to lift a co-worker up on the forks - GM. If i was to lift a customer up on the forks - GM.
However it is perfectly ok to lift the owner of the company up on the forks if they tell me to do so.
But again i think back to worst case scenario - slip, fall, die.




Walking a fine line as it is, i don't want to go down the disciplinary process for disobeying an order, but in this scenario (which does happen), what do i do?

gibson123

You have a duty to ensure you do not use unsafe practices at work. Ignorance is no defense and if you knowingly use unsafe practices you are in even more trouble, which could go as far as criminal procedings if some-one got seriously hurt. if you were dismissed for refusing to do something unsafe you would have a good case at an industrial tribunal as employees who exercise their statutory safety rights are protected from detrimental action by the employer.

dickydonkin

BarrelScraper wrote: »

So imagine a yard/warehouse type of environment with fork lift trucks.

Obviously, lifting a person up on the forks (where they're physically stood ON the forks) is a serious breach of health & safety. I'm not sure on the charge for this, but i would imagine it'd be gross misconduct & therefore instant dismissal?

If the company allow this, then silence is consent - until something goes belly up. Then they will very likely sack the employee, but that will not remove the responsibilty of the employer.

When such safety breaches become the norm, then this is what is known as 'routine violations'.

Besides, we've already been briefed about this & anyone to be lifted needs to be inside a man-cage. This still goes on in the workplace (not by me).

The problem comes when the person telling you to lift them is the boss (owner of the company).
If you go ahead with it - you're breaking company policy & health & safety.
If you refuse - you're disobeying an order from the managing director which leads to disciplinary process.

So you're stuck in the middle.

No you are not. You also have a responsibilty under the same legislation as your employer and the next time such a request is made, refuse point blank (ideally with a witness). See this as an example where the employee can also be prosecuted.

Is this policy in writing? - hopefully it is - although such a major breach should not need to be.

However, I can understand in the current job climate the reluctance to refuse a request from a manager.

Worst case scenario is you lift the person up, they slip, fall & die. When the investigation is done with, i don't imagine anyone is going to come to you/me & say don't worry about it, it's not your fault.


I've asked someone to look into it who came back to me & said that if i was to lift a co-worker up on the forks - GM. If i was to lift a customer up on the forks - GM.
However it is perfectly ok to lift the owner of the company up on the forks if they tell me to do so.
But again i think back to worst case scenario - slip, fall, die.

Easy answer - NOBODY should be lifted upon the forks - end of!

Remember there is not just a risk of falling off the forks, but there is a risk of contact with electricity, impact with structures and arms and hands getting trapped between the mast when lowering/raising.

Certainly one of the biggest 'NO NO's' you can do when operating a fork truck.

I can recall such an incident and as I remember, someone was lifting a colleague up on the forks - unfortunately (or fortunately - whichever way you look at it) a HSE inspector was passing and issued a prohibition notice and the company was subsequently fined £20,000. That is how serious this stupid action is dealt with by the HSE.

As I have mentioned in previous posts, there does not have to be an injury for the HSE to prosecute.

Closer to home, where I used to work, an agency fork truck driver climbed onto the raised forks of his truck to retrieve stock - another truck came around the corner of the racking and hit the stationary truck which resuted in the agency driver falling off the forks onto the concrete floor head first from about 8 feet.

This guy suffered serious head injuries and never worked again.

Walking a fine line as it is, i don't want to go down the disciplinary process for disobeying an order, but in this scenario (which does happen), what do i do?

Refuse point blank and make reference to the company policy.

Even if you don't have the required service of employment to bring a case of unfair dismissal, where health and safety is concerned, being sacked for refusing to carry out a dangerous act overrides this requirement.

ohreally

Op, I recall you are a member of a trade union, fire an e-mail off to your branch sec, copy in the branch health & safety officer and depending on structure your regional office.

Supply this for information and outline your concerns. Decide whether you want them to maintain your confidentiality.

ILW

Spoilsports

When I worked in a warehouse 30 odd years ago, one of the high points of the day was playing with the forklifts. Nobody got seriously hurt.

BarrelScraper

Thanks for the replies. It confirms what i thought & thank you very much for this:

See this as an example where the employee can also be prosecuted.

That shall prove handy as it's always better to have some literature when you're in the office stressing a point

ILW wrote: »

Spoilsports

When I worked in a warehouse 30 odd years ago, one of the high points of the day was playing with the forklifts. Nobody got seriously hurt.

Ahh, back in the good bad old days where you could likely wallop someone & get away with it as you'd both be down the pub at the end of the day laughing about it. Back when you could tell someone to sort themselves out without fear of being disciplined for bullying.

Unfortunately, i've seen people taking silly risks with my own eyes & ending up not working again due to it. Not something i care to be a part of tbh.

Notmyrealname

I've got a lift up onto the back of my lorry with a forklift thousands of times and not a single thing has happened to me or anyone I know who has done it. Obviously there's a massive difference between a few feet and the top level of storage racking.

ILW

Do demo guys still use the bucket on JCB as an escalator?

BarrelScraper

Notmyrealname wrote: »

I've got a lift up onto the back of my lorry with a forklift thousands of times and not a single thing has happened to me or anyone I know who has done it. Obviously there's a massive difference between a few feet and the top level of storage racking.

If your company are looking to get rid of you i would bet every penny i have that they would see no difference whatsoever & on both accounts you'd be bounced out the door fast as you like

ILW wrote: »

Do demo guys still use the bucket on JCB as an escalator?

We've lifted people up in JCB buckets before. The boss has also asked us to do this.
All this was before i became H&S aware & from this, the company became H&S aware.

Some safety measures i do think are OTT, however some are pretty much common sense & if you ignore them then you're asking for trouble.

dickydonkin

Notmyrealname wrote: »

I've got a lift up onto the back of my lorry with a forklift thousands of times and not a single thing has happened to me or anyone I know who has done it. Obviously there's a massive difference between a few feet and the top level of storage racking.

No there isn't!

The fine will still be the same as will all the other negative implications that will apply to the company for a breach of safety legislation - which this stupid action clearly is. I cannot believe that a company still allow their workers to do this and it makes you wonder what other risks they place their workers at.

The reality is that most working from height injuries are as result from falling off low levels - as 2000 seriously injured people last year will testify. An example I gave on another thread was where a worker slipped off the bottom rung of a ladder, cracked his head on the floor and was killed instantly.

The act you describe is dangerous -pure and simple - and I have seen first hand and the pool of blood on the floor where a guy fell doing this - he never worked again and still suffers problems.

In respect of lifting people onto trailers, our warehouse guys did this quite often. Being the safety killjoy that I am - I stopped this unsafe practice and implemented a system where if a driver needed to be raised onto the back of a trailer, a safety cage must be attached to the forks - the cage was located near the loading bays and took a few seconds to attach and secure.

Let me tell you that if a HSE inspector saw you raising drivers on forks, the company would at least receive an enforcement notice. If an injury occurred or worse - there would be very likely be a prosecution and a claim for personal injury, not to mention the fees now charged by the HSE to the employer under the recently introduced Fees for Intervention scheme (FFI) to put things right.

I also reckon a fork truck driver would be looking for a new job as his employer will certainly pass the buck onto him for ignoring his FLT training requirements.

I suspect this employee carried out this unsafe act many times as well - before he nearly got killed doing it!

So OK, I am a killjoy - but I get paid to stop people getting hurt and also keep businesses on the right side of the law - and some of the posts on here typifies the problems I have.

"We have done this for years and nobody has been hurt" is a common excuse - but won't wash when somebody actually is.

ILW wrote: »

Spoilsports
When I worked in a warehouse 30 odd years ago, one of the high points of the day was playing with the forklifts. Nobody got seriously hurt.

Probably posted to antagonise and I was going to respond, but I think the sensible posters on here can see what an idiotic comment this is.

Maybe if one of your family was killed at work with a fork truck by someone who was 'playing' with it, then perhaps your mindset would change.

Wail

Does the company have a health and safety policy dealing with this activity? My advice would be to ask to see where it is set in writing that you can lift someone on the forks?

I would advise them to put any charge for a disciplinary in writing. Your union and the HSE can have the field day.

We do plenty of things thousands of times that are a little risky but the aim is to minimise the number of hazards and the severity.