Becoming a Mortgage Advisor - Any advice?

toonfish

spurs_nut wrote: »

I've just had our factfind for mortgage protection/life assurance through the post to sign and send back to our broker.

Surely this is necessary?

Whats to stop me in a few months time claiming I'd been missold a policy and asking for a refund if there was nothing signed and no proof.
Or what's to stop the broker from misselling because the client doesn't know exactly what they're getting. Surely it's there for the protection of both parties.

At least with this fact find I know exactly what I'm getting and understand it all.

Sounds like a must to me.

surely that was th eletter of recommendation you signed - not the factfind?

toonfish

MortgageMamma wrote: »

Never mind I suppose its only natural advisers all work to different standards.

the only critical thing is that the client gets appropriate advice.

MortgageMamma

toonfish wrote: »

the only critical thing is that the client gets appropriate advice.

Agreed but I think you arre leaving yourself wide open by not getting them signed - you have to look after yourself as well as you look after your clients.

FSA rules are there as a guide only and are open to interpretation. Good practice is built upon them. it is true all networks interpret them differently, but there is no point in taking chances and leaving yourself wide open in event of a claim if it just takes two minutes to get a client to review the information and sign the form.

I am especially diligent about getting mine signed as I run an internet based company and the majority of my advice is given over the phone. I also have other measures to protect myself. Like you say, if the client gets appropriate advice that is good, but you need to be able to justify from multiple sources that it IS appropriate in the event of a claim. There may have been no successful claims to date that have been paid out due to an unsigned fact find, but that does not mean that there never will be. Watch your back! Rant over!

spurs_nut

It said it was a factfind sheet, basically different questions that the broker asked us and then made his recommendations on what he said.

This came along with statement of demands and needs letter. Is that what you mean?

You could be right, but it said factfind on the sheet so am assuming it's the same thing.

However I agree with what you say above. That is the most important thing, but there's no harm in security.

spurs_nut

What also worries me is the growing trend of these life an mortgage/cic policies seem to being finding the slightest technicality so not to pay out.

Mr_helpful

The fact find is just the advisers notes and if filled in over the phone the client wouldnt see it anyway. the suitability letter or in the case of insurance is the real critical thing in the case of a complaint as this points out to the client the basis of the sale and why that particular product and provider was sold. though of course it doesnt do any harm to get the fact dind signed if paper copies are held. trouble is if stored in pdf format it is easy to alter as long as you have the full adobe program.

dunstonh

Dunstonh, if an adviser does not get a fact find signed by a client, they could write anything in it themselves,which although most of us wouldnt dream of doing that there is still the odd wide boy that would

Secondly in the event of a complaint the client could dispute giving the information on the factfind, where does that leave an adviser without a signature?

The factfind is sent attached to the suitability report. The client gets a copy. Plus the suitability report is basically the user friendly version of the factfind.

When you look at a factfind, the bulk of the pages are name, address, date of birth etc. The key bits appropriate to the advice appear in the suitability report (shortfalls, reasons, risk warnings etc). The suitability report is the most important document of all. This is reflected in guidence issued by the FSA in Dec 2005 that stated all discussions appropriate should be recorded in the suitability report.

Also, sesame do not insist on suitability letters signed by the client, for those that don't know a suitability letter is a report summarising the clients objective, their circumstances, the recommended product, the reasons for the recommendatoin and any warnings that are needed e.g. rates can go much higher than this. make sure you can pay your mortgage if rates rise.

Most networks insist these are signed as it is proof that the client has been fully advised and that they agree with the recommendation, the reasons behind it and all information is correct. If these are not signed by the client how can the adviser prove the client has had this and has been advised?

Most networks do not require the suitability report to be signed and again there is no requirement for it to be signed.

I'm sorry dunstonh but I've had an inside view on the running of sesame mortgage markets and they are not doing half of what they should be in my opinion - I wouldnt touch them with a bargepole

You views are based on inaccurate information then.

It's one thing to be compliant. It is another to be paranoid.

Perhaps this is the difference between a hands on and a hands off network. Sesame allow companies to decide how they do things. If you want the factfind signed, then you can add a signature box. If you want the suitability report signed, then you can add a signature box. If you want to pre-issue the suitability report, then you can pre-issue it. As long as you are meeting the FSA required standards, then they do not have a problem. If you wish to exceed that you can.

Personally, I tend to pre-issue the suitability report prior to application. I am pleased I have the choice to decide how my business operates.

I am with Pink and Pink insist things are done properly. It involves more work and administration on the advisers part but their compliance process is watertight in my view - which is why I went to them. Having experienced less than adequate compliance support at my last company I can only say that I'm glad I have to work to such high standards

Sounds more like an employer who is forcing you to do things their way rather than a network who is working for you.

Here is a good measure of a decent network or not; All firms had to have in place by the end of March their action plans regarding the implemtation of TCF. What did your network do to help you do this?

MortgageMamma

Mr_helpful wrote: »

The fact find is just the advisers notes and if filled in over the phone the client wouldnt see it anyway.

Fax, email, post? we are not in the dark ages delivering things with a horse and carriage my dear

the suitability letter or in the case of insurance is the real critical thing in the case of a complaint as this points out to the client the basis of the sale and why that particular product and provider was sold.

though of course it doesnt do any harm to get the fact dind signed if paper copies are held. thankyou!


trouble is if stored in pdf format it is easy to alter as long as you have the full adobe program.

Don't put ideas into peoples heads!

MortgageMamma

dunstonh wrote: »

The factfind is sent attached to the suitability report. The client gets a copy. Plus the suitability report is basically the user friendly version of the factfind.

So, why don't you get the factfind signed too if its attached to the suitability? there must be more reasons FOR doing this than FOR NOT

When you look at a factfind, the bulk of the pages are name, address, date of birth etc. The key bits appropriate to the advice appear in the suitability report (shortfalls, reasons, risk warnings etc). The suitability report is the most important document of all.

Do you get these signed? Nope, its not even a requirement to send a suitability report according to the fsa, and sesame only ask that their AR's do it for complex cases

Most networks do not require the suitability report to be signed and again there is no requirement for it to be signed.

Which in my view is a very dangerous practice. If the fact find is not signed as a record of conversation, and the suitability letter is not signed and dated by the client, whats stopping an adviser doing a suitability letter a year or two later just to satisfy a compliance visit? (which I have recently witnessed happen with a member of your network) These rules are not good enough in my opinion.

You views are based on inaccurate information then.

My views are based on my own and my networks interpretation of what is good practice, the guidance issued by the FSA is the bare minimum you have to adhere to

It's one thing to be compliant. It is another to be paranoid.

In the rapidly expanding compensation culture we live in (you only have to look at the posts in this forum to see what I mean) I am happy that I am vigilant and aware of what I consider to be loopholes that could be used in the event of future claims and that I am taking preventative action now so that me and my business are safe in the future, and my clients are treated in an open and fair manner.

Its one thing to be paranoid and careful, but its quite another to be wreckless and careless

Perhaps this is the difference between a hands on and a hands off network. Sesame allow companies to decide how they do things. If you want the factfind signed, then you can add a signature box. If you want the suitability report signed, then you can add a signature box. If you want to pre-issue the suitability report, then you can pre-issue it. As long as you are meeting the FSA required standards, then they do not have a problem. If you wish to exceed that you can.

Perhaps this is the difference between a network who wants to raise industry standards, looks after its members and wants to attract quality companies, as opposed to a network that has become complacent because of the sheer number of members, that thinks it can sell itself on good products alone, and perhaps one that may have difficulty retaining members - they must be leaving for something - all 186 wont have been booted out or migrated to DA.

Personally, I tend to pre-issue the suitability report prior to application. I am pleased I have the choice to decide how my business operates.
Sounds more like an employer who is forcing you to do things their way rather than a network who is working for you.

I assure you, if I didnt like Pink's way I would never have joined. I examined several networks before I fled my DA nest and without doubt they were the best I could find.

They have good member retention and another 16 firms joined in q1 this year. They are a strong and growing network with this year in the 1st quarter over 40% growth on 2006 in completed mortgage applications, and a 52% increase in lending. When you combine this growth with a 30% increase in the number of appointed representatives compared to the same period in 2006 along with an 80% increase in profitability, it is quite easy to see they are doing something right, otherwise nobody would want involvement with them!;)

HelpWhereIcan

MM, as a Sesame AR myself , I have to say that I am quite frankly amazed at some of your comments about their compliance.

As dunstonh says, there is a difference between a principal being prescriptive in their approach and good compliance.

MortgageMamma wrote: »

Dunstonh, if an adviser does not get a fact find signed by a client, they could write anything in it themselves,which although most of us wouldnt dream of doing that there is still the odd wide boy that would

Secondly in the event of a complaint the client could dispute giving the information on the factfind, where does that leave an adviser without a signature?

The same place as an adviser who did not get every page of the Factfind signed.

Can I assume you get the client to sign the IDD as well?

MortgageMamma wrote: »

Also, sesame do not insist on suitability letters signed by the client...Most networks insist these are signed as it is proof that the client has been fully advised and that they agree with the recommendation, the reasons behind it and all information is correct. If these are not signed by the client how can the adviser prove the client has had this and has been advised?..The way sesame mortgage markets work is the adviser only has to do a suitability letter AT ALL if its interest only or adverse credit or debt consolidation.

Again, where do you think you are better off with the last page of a suitability letter signed. Unless every page is signed, it is no proof that the file copy you have is the same as the one the client received.

Sesame actually concentrate on the quality of the information retained on file about the reccomendation - a lot of the soft facts (fact Find records only the hard ones) and the ability to understand the reasons for the advice and warnings given based upon the suitability letter/file notes alone. Most Sesame advisers actually issue a suitability letter as it is best practice (not something you have a monopoly on!) but also because Sesame's requirements for file notes etc mean you may as well write one. A signed suitability letter does not make the contents any more watertight - the information you are required to record does.

MortgageMamma wrote: »

So they are promoting the "give them a key facts, have a little chat with them and sign them up" culture

That is not proper advice and I would be embarassed to treat my clients in that manner, not to mention constantly anxious that I had no defence in the event of a complaint.

That is more than a little insulting to those of us whom you know to be Sesame advisers with significantly more experience of the industry and advising clients than you have.

MortgageMamma wrote: »

I am with Pink and Pink insist things are done properly. It involves more work and administration on the advisers part but their compliance process is watertight in my view - which is why I went to them. Having experienced less than adequate compliance support at my last company I can only say that I'm glad I have to work to such high standards

I seem to remember Equitable Life advisers having such a high opinion of themselves as well!! :rotfl:

complete the saying "Pride comes before a..."

MortgageMamma wrote: »

I am especially diligent about getting mine signed as I run an internet based company and the majority of my advice is given over the phone. I also have other measures to protect myself.

Presumably by recording your calls - much better than a signature on the fact find/suitability letter any day.

I record calls, retain detailed time and date stamped contact notes and make sure that I keep detailed file notes to paint the whole picture - that is the kind of info a spurious complainant would find hard to contest - not a signature on one page of a 6 -12 page document.

MortgageMamma wrote: »

I'm sorry dunstonh but I've had an inside view on the running of sesame mortgage markets and they are not doing half of what they should be in my opinion - I wouldnt touch them with a bargepole

And I know from the conversations that I have with advisers who are ARs of many different Networks and Directly Authorised firms that what we are asked to do at Sesame is no less than anywhere else and more than most.

You appear to be trying your best to portray yourself in the best possible light at the expense of others and cannot seem to accept that there is more to compliance than form filling.

Sesame are one of the few networks not to allow advisers to have online mortgage sourcing tools on their sites for fears of problems in the future. They are the most active voice in discouraging non advised sales by their advisers.

I could almost be tempted to think that Pink may be offering, say, a couple of hundred quid to advisers who recruit members.