Being asked to not clock on, yet to attend work. Legalities?

BarrelScraper

Doesn't concern me, but i'm very curious about the legalities of it, especially as it could potentially concern someone quite close to me.

Basically we're discussing drivers - so hopefully you're aware of drivers hours & the 45hour rest break & how if you don't get that break you have to make it up & all those complications. You need to be aware of this as it's very relevant to the story...

So basically a driver has been told today (Weds) that he's to go on a course which enables him to enter quarries (he's been entering them for 6 months without such course/qualification). He's made plans for this Saturday (the day of the course) so instantly complained. He HAS to go on the course.

He's also due his rest break this weekend (but obviously he can start later on Monday if he doesn't get his 45 hours this weekend).

First off he said he'll now refuse to go into quarries until he goes on this course, as they need to make their mind up whether he's qualified or not.

The key concern here though, is that they're TELLING HIM to NOT clock on. Instead note down how many hours he's done on the course & they'll pay him for that - all so he can start work at 6:30am/7:00am on Monday morning (which he wouldn't be able to do if he were clocked on).

He was told he's not AT work, so he doesn't need to clock on. He argues he's DOING work, so he does need to clock on - it's not him wanting to do this, it's them telling him. He says he'll clock on, they order him not to.


Now as he's telling me this, my thoughts are that he must surely clock on - he's doing something for work, not his own enjoyment. He must surely need to record his time the proper way.
Not only this, let's say for example his car reg plate has been cloned (this exact case has happened to a co-worker) & this car is involved in a speeding offence, or a hit & run let's say. My co-worker will be asked where he was. If he's clocked on, he can prove where he was. If not, it becomes harder.

So he clocks on & does things "proper" but gets roasted for disobeying orders, or he doesn't clock on & does things the naughty way.

It's all to do with his working rest breaks as he said that by the time this course finishes, he'll likely require all of Monday off & part of Tuesday morning - which is why they're so concerned.



Feedback please

ohreally

BarrelScraper wrote: »

So he clocks on & does things "proper" but gets roasted for disobeying orders, or he doesn't clock on & does things the naughty way

If nothing else, ensure the employer confirms all these clocking on / not clocking on arrangements by e-mail.
This will at least generate a paper trail from the employer to him, demonstrating concerns have been raised with management - this should prevent backlash in the event of a problem.

If it were me I'd be on the clock.

LittleVoice

Will he be driving while he is on the course? If not, then clocking on seems to confuse the counting of driving/working hours. (Assuming that non-driving work has to be counted towards the total hours maximum.)

But agree, in any event, that he should get written confirmation from the employer that he doesn't need to clock on/off.

RuthnJasper

Yes - ENSURE that everything is in writing. Where drivers are concerned, any infringements on their tachographs/rest-breaks/speed-limits reflect on their own, personal, driving licences and NOT their employers'.

About ten years ago I worked for a firm that employed a driver. In his own car one Sunday evening he did something a bit daft and got his licence suspended for 12 months for driving without due care and attention. He lost his job. It was quite sad really - but if a driver flouts any regulations the only sufferer will be the driver himself, and he can easily be replaced. Sorry if this sounds a bit callous, but that's the way it is with these things.

If the driver in question's employers are telling him that he MUST attend this course then he IS "at work". Please make sure he's covered his back. My tip would be to play the innocent. Send the employers/manager/supervisor an email, which begins along the lines of "I'm sorry for querying this again, but I'd appreciate a bit of clarification. Can I just confirm that this is an essential course which I am expected to attend during normal working hours (giving dates and times where available) but I am NOT to clock on for these periods? (also include any other information that's necessary) Advice and confirmation would be much appreciated. Thank you."

Keep it light, pleasant and informal - it may be that all is innocently intended, after all - but make sure that the basic facts are received in writing and then, at least, your friend/colleague is covered should something go awry.

Hope all turns out well. You must be a very nice person and colleague, to be concerned about this fellow. Best wishes to you. xx

BarrelScraper

ohreally wrote: »

If nothing else, ensure the employer confirms all these clocking on / not clocking on arrangements by e-mail.

eMail isn't an option i'm afraid. Asking for it in writing would be though.

LittleVoice wrote: »

Will he be driving while he is on the course?

Nope. He'll be driving TO the course as it's off site somewhere. Then they just sit in a classroom AFAIK.

If not, then clocking on seems to confuse the counting of driving/working hours. (Assuming that non-driving work has to be counted towards the total hours maximum.)

From what i've been told by drivers & transport managers, it doesn't (confuse driving hours).
As this chap has turned a wheel in a 2 week segment, he falls under driving hours. He hasn't just turned a wheel, but actually driven day after day for full days. As a result he's requiring a 45 hour rest break this weekend. Not just from driving but working & being on a course is part of work.
It all sounds extremely confusing until those in the know actually explain it to you. Doesn't mean i understand it well enough to explain it to someone else though.



But still, what would written confirmation do? The only reason they want him (& others) not to clock on is so that they can break the law by starting early on Monday morning (i.e. breaking their 45hour break).
Now if the employee doesn't care then that's their own business, but a 45 hour break is THE law, so you're entitled to it & this chap wants his.

Jo_F

He really needs to clock on, this is working time and is using up his rest hours, he can take a reduced rest, but it will need to be made back up again.

If he was doing this course off his own back, then it's not really counted as work, but seeing as work are sending him, then it is most definately work, he needs to protect his licence, so he needs to clock on and then either take the full rest, or the shortened rest, telling his boss that.

BarrelScraper

RuthnJasper wrote: »

Yes - ENSURE that everything is in writing. Where drivers are concerned, any infringements on their tachographs/rest-breaks/speed-limits reflect on their own, personal, driving licences and NOT their employers'.

About ten years ago I worked for a firm that employed a driver. In his own car one Sunday evening he did something a bit daft and got his licence suspended for 12 months for driving without due care and attention. He lost his job. It was quite sad really - but if a driver flouts any regulations the only sufferer will be the driver himself, and he can easily be replaced. Sorry if this sounds a bit callous, but that's the way it is with these things.

This is why i keep telling these people that ATEOTD the decision is THEIRS! Load safety is THEIR responsibility.
Yet they allow their managers & the boss to bully them into leaving the depot overweight, lob-sided & all the rest, because they're having pressure put on them.
I tell them all they have to do is say "NO" & they can't argue with it as it's law. Unfortunately we work with too many "yes men", but these same yes men will soon be crying when they're out of a job due to their own stupidity.

it may be that all is innocently intended, after all

Trust me, it REALLY isn't. They know exactly why they're asking - it's to blatantly break the law so they can squeeze some more working time out of the drivers. If the driver can't turn in, either cover needs to be arranged (which then leaves another hole elsewhere in the company) or some work needs to be written off - it all means lost money.
They KNOW why they're asking.

Hope all turns out well. You must be a very nice person and colleague, to be concerned about this fellow. Best wishes to you. xx

Some say i am. I'm just a stickler for things being done "right".

That, and i can't stand companies leaning on folk, especially when they're trying to get them to break the law, because when it all boils over & the poop hits the fan, who's going to cop it? The company? Or the driver? The company would write off any fine with a giggle & replace the driver. The driver is out of work & can no longer support his family & then has to compete with all the other 1000s of other people looking for driving jobs. I don't like bullies & if i see someone being bullied, even if it's not my concern i will do my best to help them.

RuthnJasper

BarrelScraper wrote: »

This is why i keep telling these people that ATEOTD the decision is THEIRS! Load safety is THEIR responsibility.
Yet they allow their managers & the boss to bully them into leaving the depot overweight, lob-sided & all the rest, because they're having pressure put on them.
I tell them all they have to do is say "NO" & they can't argue with it as it's law. Unfortunately we work with too many "yes men", but these same yes men will soon be crying when they're out of a job due to their own stupidity.


Trust me, it REALLY isn't. They know exactly why they're asking - it's to blatantly break the law so they can squeeze some more working time out of the drivers. If the driver can't turn in, either cover needs to be arranged (which then leaves another hole elsewhere in the company) or some work needs to be written off - it all means lost money.
They KNOW why they're asking.



Some say i am. I'm just a stickler for things being done "right".

That, and i can't stand companies leaning on folk, especially when they're trying to get them to break the law, because when it all boils over & the poop hits the fan, who's going to cop it? The company? Or the driver? The company would write off any fine with a giggle & replace the driver. The driver is out of work & can no longer support his family & then has to compete with all the other 1000s of other people looking for driving jobs. I don't like bullies & if i see someone being bullied, even if it's not my concern i will do my best to help them.

Good on you. If a point's worth making, it's worth repeating. xx

Owain_Moneysaver

BarrelScraper wrote: »

That, and i can't stand companies leaning on folk, especially when they're trying to get them to break the law, because when it all boils over & the poop hits the fan, who's going to cop it? The company? Or the driver? The company would write off any fine with a giggle & replace the driver. The driver is out of work & can no longer support his family & then has to compete with all the other 1000s of other people looking for driving jobs.

And some other family is possibly going to a funeral because of an accident caused by a tired driver.

Notmyrealname

BarrelScraper wrote: »

The key concern here though, is that they're TELLING HIM to NOT clock on. Instead note down how many hours he's done on the course & they'll pay him for that - all so he can start work at 6:30am/7:00am on Monday morning (which he wouldn't be able to do if he were clocked on).

He was told he's not AT work, so he doesn't need to clock on. He argues he's DOING work, so he does need to clock on - it's not him wanting to do this, it's them telling him. He says he'll clock on, they order him not to.


Now as he's telling me this, my thoughts are that he must surely clock on - he's doing something for work, not his own enjoyment. He must surely need to record his time the proper way.
Not only this, let's say for example his car reg plate has been cloned (this exact case has happened to a co-worker) & this car is involved in a speeding offence, or a hit & run let's say. My co-worker will be asked where he was. If he's clocked on, he can prove where he was. If not, it becomes harder.

So he clocks on & does things "proper" but gets roasted for disobeying orders, or he doesn't clock on & does things the naughty way.

It's all to do with his working rest breaks as he said that by the time this course finishes, he'll likely require all of Monday off & part of Tuesday morning - which is why they're so concerned.



Feedback please

OK, where he stands.

Clocking on is completely and utterly irrelevant to the whole thing. It proves nothing - what is on the tachograph counts more. In 20 years of driving trucks I maybe clocked on for less than 12 months for one or two employers. Very few haulage companies have clocking on - they just use the info from the tachograph.

In regards to drivers hours, it is classed as other work. It has to be recorded on his tachograph - if digital by making a manual entry for the Saturday when he puts his card in on Monday or if paper charts, manually writing out a card and filling in the time spent doing the course as other work on the rear of the card. This would be the same whether he was on the course or drove 4 days a week for his employer and worked in a factory for another day a week for someone else doing a job that had nothing to do with haulage.

In regards to weekly rest periods, he can reduce that to 24hrs so as long as he didn't have a reduced weekly rest period the previous week, he can perfectly legally do the course on Saturday and start work at 00:01hrs on Monday.