Economy 10??

jd0000

I have just moved into a new flat and wondered whether anyone could help me out. Sorry if these are stupid questions, I don't completely understand how the system in the flat works. The flat is all-electric, and I think is what is considered "wet central heating" (water filled rads, electric Amptec boiler). There is a water cylinder that is connected to the boiler as well and also has an immersion element at the top (I think). I can send pics if that would help. The shower is electric, doesn't draw from the hot water store.

The flat has an old white meter, which is I take it is from a time when it had storage heaters. It's on Southern Electric's white meter tariff which is like E7, but a bit more expensive (but with 8 cheap night hours). Because it's an old white meter, no other company will use it. SE will switch the meter for free if I want. The options then are to get a newer E7 meter, an E10 meter, or a regular meter. People seem to think that E10 is the way to go (it is available from SE in my area), but I am so far not convinced that this is right. First, I am worried that no one else offers E10 so I won't easily be able to switch away from SE. In general though, as far as I can tell this flat has no way to store heat, so when I need heat in the mornings I will have to be using electricity at the (super) high rate. Is that right? Same with shower. The flat is a small one-bed. West facing. I work from home most mornings. Any advice?

Cardew

Welcome to the forum.

If you do a search on this section of the forum ('forum Search' at top of this page and enter Economy10 or E10) you will find load of threads on the subject.

From what you say - no storage heating capacity - it wouldn't appear that E10 would be suitable.

It also restricts your choice of utility company as most don't cater for E10.

jd0000

Thanks, Cardew! Yes, I found tons of info in the forums, really helpful. It's basically the only reason I've figured anything out so far. I just couldn't quite find an answer to my questions. People (at SE especially) keep telling me that E10 is meant for electric wet central heating as if it's obviously the cheaper option. I keep feeling as though I must be missing something. Thanks so much for your input!

Cardew

Some electric wet heating systems have a large 'thermal store' which is essentially a very large insulated tank of hot water(not to be confused with the hot water tank for supplying taps).

This thermal store can be heated on E7 or E10 and the hot water pumped to the radiators. Effectively another form of storage heating, but instead of heating bricks in a conventional storage heater(that releases warm air) you heat water in this thermal store.

However as you don't have either form of heat storage, there seems little point in E7 or E10 when most of your heat from the Amptec boiler will be produced at the peak rate electricity times.

Richie-from-the-Boro

- Non-Combi - cheap to install expensive to run - non thermal store - non mains pressure - anyone's E10 tariff

- Combi - expensive [ mains pressure boiler ] to install - cheaper to run - thermal store - SP's E2000 tariff - it can be cheaper than E7 ~ if ~ you have sufficient insulated storage capacity

NOTE01 : On the E2000 system the boiler & and heat store works for 18 hours a day, but the pump is supplied with leccy for 24 hours a day so the heating and hot water work a 24 hour cycle.

NOTE02 : see the Terrylw1 thread : here

Now the question jd0000 is which version do you have ? I suspect you have the E10 / sealed / mains pressure system. In which case if you have a sufficient enough storage capacity and because you work from home E10 which is the luxury end of E7 might in this instance [ rare as hens teeth ] be a good choice.

jd0000

Thanks so much to both!

I don't know which sort of set-up I have. I don't think there's a thermal store, but maybe I'm wrong. Sorry, I'm really just figuring this system out. Basically, the boiler is an Amptec 900. It's a bit older than the one in the pic you linked to, but looks more or less the same. The boiler connects to a smallish "Albion Indirect" cylinder and in the cupboard above the cylinder there is something which is encased in styrofoam which I can't see or access. I've assumed this is a cold water tank, but as you can see I'm not all that on top of these things. I can send a pic if that would help.

Really, thanks *so* much for the advice!

Richie-from-the-Boro

jd0000 wrote: »

Thanks so much to both!

I don't know which sort of set-up I have. I don't think there's a thermal store, but maybe I'm wrong. Sorry, I'm really just figuring this system out. Basically, the boiler is an Amptec 900. It's a bit older than the one in the pic you linked to, but looks more or less the same. The boiler connects to a smallish "Albion Indirect" cylinder and in the cupboard above the cylinder there is something which is encased in styrofoam which I can't see or access. I've assumed this is a cold water tank, but as you can see I'm not all that on top of these things. I can send a pic if that would help.

Really, thanks *so* much for the advice!

Without going into the tech stuff that sprayed foam cylinder [if it is the hot water storage] insulation is usually 60mm thick and a more than good enough insulator to keep the water hot enough for E7 let alone E10. The Albions like all of them vary in size - it sounds like you have a smallish one. Like all installs the commercial sector will only ever put in the cheapest config for the time and is often under spec'd some years later.

You know you won't really know till this time next year, you have to suck it and see till you get some hard numbers over a winter for comparison. Because you work from home [applies to retired & unemployed home most of the time / lifestyle issue] you are in that minority group that might well benefit from E10. The bottom lone is if anyone was starting from scratch and the had to have all electric heating they would not choose waterbourne, but you have what you have and it would be cost ineffective to change it for anything else. Look at your tariff though Sottish Power are hard to beat on E7 and virtually impossible to beat on E10.

jd0000

Thanks so much! I guess you're right that I will have to work it out over the winter.

Can I just clarify one more thing? My understanding then is that the hot water from the Albion cylinder is not used to heat up the radiators. It's just hot water for the taps and has nothing to do with the CH. So, I can store hot water during cheap hours for the taps but not for the CH (I would need a "thermal store" to store hot water for the CH system). Is that right?

Anyway, this has been very helpful and I am extremely grateful. Thanks again!

Terrylw1

Just to add from the meter side of it, as opposed to the heating which Cardew & Richie know far more about than I do, your supplier is incorrect.

Every meter can be registered by all suppliers, its a licence requirement.

The real issue is that a) some suppliers chose not to support all types of meter in their billing systems, b) since some more complex versions meant a dual MPAN set up for the tariff combined (not single rate + off peak seperate tariffs which are common and all suppliers could handle them) and their old regional billing systems were not expanded to bill them and c) some are speciliast products such as the SPOW only region E2000, HYDE only THTC, NEEB only Superdeal, then there are Heatwise, Warmwise, etc...so they are unpopular and a headache to create prices for so don't benefit from inclusion in all products hence are often a standard contract only.

So, you have a standard rate meter plus a white meter (off peak) and these are billed as seperate tariffs on the bill? If so, its a standard + off peak, not one of the E10 style meters some of which are mentioned in c) above.

E10 is also confusing to a lot of call centre people who give customers incorrect information.

There are 2 main types:

1 - single MPAN E10. These work just like E7 but have 3 more hours and a different pattern which includes the day time. Anything used in off peak time is charged at that rate, just like on E7. These meters have been available in every region since deregulation so every ex regional supplier can handle them.

2 - dual MPAN E10. This one is completely regional based on the nationalised days. Hence different names as in c) above. These are different because you have a 2 rate Day & Night meter but the Night Rate won't be 10 hers, often 5 hours. This element works like your E7 in that whatever you use, is billed to the rate it was on at the time. The difference is that any heat is connected to a Heat register (a 3rd register, although such as Warmwise has a 4th to allow tier 1 & 2 pricing) and comes on for 10 hrs, usually in 2-4 bursts including day, evening & night periods. All heat usage is recorded on a seperate Heat register. These are ex regional, so these are the ones suppliers may choose to turn away.

friendly1

Hi There,

I've found this thread very interesting as I have considered Economy 10 myself for a heat pump system I have as the house only needs heat input from time to time (as it holds the heat) but economy 10 is too long a day time gap. I am 1 step back

I am frustrated as I don't currently have a meter and want one fitted and then to obtain the best price for E10 - so

How do you get an E10 meter fitted
How do you get quotes to find best prices

friendly1

sorry I meant Ec7 has too long a gap - and by the way my region is County Durham