Self-employed but not really, now "fired"

McKneff

I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking they can choose to be self employed.

It's down to the criteria of the job and the HMRC decides who can be self employed and not the company or the 'wannabe self employed'

PlutoinCapricorn

HMRC is reported to be cracking down on the various types of "false self employment" so it is good that the OP is going to put his affairs on order. Very small companies that require people to work for them on a self employed basis may not be aware of the rules or they may deliberately avoid their responsibilities.

Uncertain

McKneff wrote: »

I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking they can choose to be self employed.

It's down to the criteria of the job and the HMRC decides who can be self employed and not the company or the 'wannabe self employed'

HMRC's decision is for tax purposes only. It is possible that an employment tribunal will take a different view (it has happened many times) when considering whether or not the person was, by default, an employee and can therefore claim unfair dismissal etc.

Neither the ET's or HMRC's decision are binding on the other.

Uncertain

heretolearn wrote: »

You've taken the benefits of being self employed (tax) for years. You also have to take the down side. You have no employment rights as you are not an employee.

No, that doesn't follow at all as I have explained above.

There is not anything like enough information in the OP to offer an opinion as to whether this might be regarded as "sham" employment. Even if it were it may or may not be in his overall best interest to make a claim.

JHolmsby

Thanks very much all.

I also don't feel it's at all as clear-cut as heartolearn makes it out, not that I don't appreciate his/her contribution. Particularly because I'm a bit at a loss to know what the benefits of "self-employment" in this case are... I had no holiday pay or time off and if I didn't show up at the office I didn't earn anything.

Someone suggested I get in touch with ACAS. Also I might go see my nearest CAB.

If anyone (Uncertain?) wants more specific information that will enable them to better judge the nature of my case, I'm happy to provide it.

All the best,
John

Uncertain

JHolmsby wrote: »

Someone suggested I get in touch with ACAS. Also I might go see my nearest CAB.

I would be very wary of any advice from ACAS call centre. Although they are good at a more senior level the initial call centre is just that. Poorly trained people largely reading from a script. Similarly the CAB although they may be able to offer you a free appointment with a lawyer.

There is (well certainly used to be) a good interactive guide on the HMRC website to help ascertain your employment status. You don't have to give your name. Remember however this is for tax purposes and, as I said, there are circumstances where an employment tribunal may take a different view.

Also check your house insurance. Many people have legal cover without even realising it.

Pupnik

Whenever these sorts of threads come up there is always a bunch of people making out that the OPs have somehow been reaping the rewards of self employment. I can only really shake my head and laugh, there are many, many people like the OP who find themselves falsely 'self employed' at the employer's request, most of whom aren't in a good enough position to say 'stuff your false self employment, I don't need the money!' It's so easy to say that it is not down to the employer to decide who is self employed but in reality when you need money and someone is offering you a 'job' you will take it even if it isn't ideal.

I wonder if the OP has ever even had a pay rise in the last 5 years? I am also falsely self employed - no holiday, no sick pay, no pay reviews, no bonus, no job security, worse pay than my colleagues (set my own rate like a real self employed person? As if they would let me!) while I work 9-5 in an office with absolutely nothing to claim buckets of tax back from as I don't even have any transport costs or use any of my own equipment, and even if I did it would not be nearly enough to make up for all the things I lose out on.

HMRC have supposedly been 'cracking down' on it for years but they have so far targetted specific areas (IT and construction) and from what I hear they only have a very small team dealing with false self employment - not nearly enough to really look into it. Even where I work I can think of dozens of other people in similar situations and only one that I know of got found out by HMRC (making it very difficult for her as the company thought she had been the one to grass them up).

Best of luck to you OP, if I were you I would start contacting other companies you worked with - so long as you have no contract saying you can't.

Notmyrealname

JHolmsby wrote: »

I'm a bit at a loss to know what the benefits of "self-employment" in this case are... I had no holiday pay or time off and if I didn't show up at the office I didn't earn anything.

However you did pay lower tax/NI and you were/should have been claiming expenses.

Notmyrealname

Pupnik wrote: »

I wonder if the OP has ever even had a pay rise in the last 5 years? I am also falsely self employed - no holiday, no sick pay, no pay reviews, no bonus, no job security, worse pay than my colleagues (set my own rate like a real self employed person? As if they would let me!) while I work 9-5 in an office with absolutely nothing to claim buckets of tax back from as I don't even have any transport costs or use any of my own equipment, and even if I did it would not be nearly enough to make up for all the things I lose out on.

They say you're self employed so send them a letter advising them of an increase in your hourly rate from date X and then bill them that new hourly rate. If they don't pay, sue them in county court. You're in the situation you are in because you don't have the balls to stand up for yourself.