Don't want to pay it... but I'm worried if I dont

Cheekibinki

Hi All

My partner was issued with a PCN by Predator Security UK LTD on 12.7.12.

The cost is £100 but if paid within 14 days it is reduced to £75. I have heard many people tell me not to pay the notice, but I'm worried as to what will happen if I don't.

My partner was in a hire car at the time (he usually drives a company car but that was inthe garage at the time of this incident).

Should I pay the £75?

Cheers
An anxious newbie

BASFORDLAD

Right first of no you DONT pay.
You wouldnt fall for those nigerian scam emails would you?

Nothing will happen at all, the sky wont fall you, they wont take your mother in law.....

As Predator security wont be able to get your address details or that of the the hire car firm since they are not AOS members then you can safely ignore

They are a small tin pot out fit so just carry on and dont worry:)

AltheHibby

Your OH needs to make sure that they hire company don't pay this and charge an admin fee on top. Good advice will be along shortly from a more experienced poster.

Edit: What BASFORDLAD says^^^^

ManxRed

I would check the Ts & Cs of the Hire Co to make sure that the section on parking tickets only covers 'penalties', 'fines' etc issued by relevant authorities and so on, and doesn't therefore cover speculative invoices issued by non-authorities.

Depending on what these terms and conditions say, it might be worth firing off a letter to the hire company instructing them not to pay any invoice from Predator.

As BASFORDLAD points out, the likelihood of the Hire Co getting anything from Predator ought to be close to zero, as they are not AOS members, but remember, these PPCs are a sly bunch so there is no guarantee of this!

Stephen_Leak

Predator. If ever there was a candidate for the most aptly named PPC ...

Firstly, the legal stuff.

Only councils, the police, train operators and Transport for London can impose legally enforceable fines or penalties. A private company or individual can't. A private parking company (PPC) call their tickets “Parking Charge Notices”, not “Penalty Charge Notices”. In law, they’re called “speculative invoices”.

Any warning signs are usually so badly positioned and worded, that they won’t have created a fair and legally binding deemed contract between the car park owner and a driver entering the car park in the first place. See The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 and Excel Parking Services vs. Cutts, Stockport, 2011.

All the car park owner (CPO) can claim from a driver in damages for any alleged breach of any alleged contract is what they’ve lost as a result. If it’s in a free car park or the driver paid, this is £0.00. Demanding more has been judged to be unreasonable and therefore an unfair contract penalty under the terms of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997, which is not legally enforceable. See Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. vs. New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd., House of Lords, 1914 and countless cases since.

There are also now recent landmark court cases, VCS Parking Control vs. Ronald Ibbotson, S!!!!horpe, 2012, HM Revenue & Customs vs. VCS Parking Control, Lower Tax Tribunal, 2012 and VCS Parking Control vs. HM Revenue & Customs (Appeal), Upper Tax Tribunal, 2012. In these cases, the judges ruled that only the car park owner can take drivers to court. The Upper Tax Tribunal is a court of record, equivalent to the High Court, and therefore its judgement sets a legal precedent.

What should I do now?

We don’t condone not paying or overstaying in a pay car park. If you owe the CPO the original charge, then you ought to write to the CPO, offering this in “full and final settlement”. In any event, you should write to the CPO, advising them that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by either of them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997. This ought to make the CPO call off the PPC and, hopefully, realise the potential cost of doing business with a PPC.

Don’t appeal to the PPC. They always reject them. What’s in it for them to let anyone off? Actually, there is something in it for them: information. They need to know the identity of the driver of the vehicle involved at the time, because that’s who the alleged contract was with. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to make do with harassing the registered keeper.

With windscreen notices, an appeal letter will tell them your name and address, and maybe who was driving at the time. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to buy the details of registered keeper from the DVLA. With postal notices, they’ve had to do this already. But they still need to know the identity of the driver.

They sometimes say that they have the right to ask for this information. This doesn’t mean that you have to tell them.

However, even if you’ve written and told them who the driver was, it just means that they can now harass the driver instead of harassing the registered keeper.

How will they do this to me?

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters. The debt collector and solicitor are usually also the PPC, but using different headed paper. These letters will threaten you with every kind of financial and legal unpleasantness imaginable to intimidate you into paying.

But, they can't actually do anything, for the same reason that a blackmailer can't take anyone who didn’t pay them to court.

What should I do then?

Continue to ignore everything you get from the PPC and their aliases. It does seem odd to deal with something like this by ignoring it. Eventually, they will run out of empty threats and stop throwing good money after bad.

However, you do need to deal with the car hire/leasing company. Most are fully aware of private parking tickets. Unfortunately, some pay the charge and then pass on the charge plus an administration charge to the driver.

Car hire/leasing contract T&Cs usually have a clause about the driver being responsible for fines or penalties. That's for legally enforceable fines or penalties from councils, police, train operators and Transport for London. But this is a speculative invoice from a private company. If they want to pay it, advise them as above. If they’ve paid it, that's their problem. If they’ve taken the money from your account, ask for it back, or else you’ll sue them for breach of their own contract.

If you need to, also advise them of this article from Fleet News ...

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2009...s-urged/30698/

... and the British Vehicle Rental & Leasing Association (BVRLA) guidelines on private parking tickets ...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bvrla+private+parking.

So, if you don't pay, sometime after 14 days, it reduces to £0.00. Yes, this is a very worrying prospect. For the predator.

Kite2010

They might not be AOS members, but they might pass on the folder to another company whom is AOS members to send letters out.

pogofish

There is already a recent thread on "Predator Security" - You would be hard pushed to find a more ropey, back alley bunch even in this industry.

Ignore altogether!

taffy056

Kite2010 wrote: »

They might not be AOS members, but they might pass on the folder to another company whom is AOS members to send letters out.

Except that would be against the BPA rules and the DPA I believe, not that the BPA or DVLA will do anything :mad:

Oopsadaisy

If you're truly worried such that your life is a mess, then paying up will stop the worry.

No-one in their right mind should pay, unless you are terrified of bits of paper in envelopes.

waterss100

Anyone have experience of Debt Recovery Plus Ltd regarding CCJs for PCNs. They have sent me a Notice of Intended Litigation on behalf of Highview Parking. What's their track record - on their website they say:

(not allowed to post link by forum)

"Contrary to what you may have read on various web forums Debt Recovery Plus Ltd DOES apply for county court judgements's (CCJ's) against individuals and companies who resist payment of parking charge notices. Please don't believe everything you read on the forums. See the list below for some of the CCJ's we have successfully applied for in recent months"

The 'list below' is merely ref nos and names, and presumably could be for any debt recovery rather than PCNs

Thanks for any advice - I'm trying to stand firm :-)

Steve

pogofish

Yes - and there are many threads on them here and both Highview and Debt Recovery Plus letter chains are well illustrated in the forum sticky, so just ignore and tick the off till the end of the scam.

Their list of "victories" is also well known - as you surmise they not relevant.

And this is a thread about Predator, not Highview or DRP - You would have been far better to start your own.

waterss100 wrote: »

Anyone have experience of Debt Recovery Plus Ltd regarding CCJs for PCNs. They have sent me a Notice of Intended Litigation on behalf of Highview Parking. What's their track record - on their website they say:

(not allowed to post link by forum)

"Contrary to what you may have read on various web forums Debt Recovery Plus Ltd DOES apply for county court judgements's (CCJ's) against individuals and companies who resist payment of parking charge notices. Please don't believe everything you read on the forums. See the list below for some of the CCJ's we have successfully applied for in recent months"

The 'list below' is merely ref nos and names, and presumably could be for any debt recovery rather than PCNs

Thanks for any advice - I'm trying to stand firm :-)

Steve