Can they Sack Me when they caused my illness?

ilovemyspecs

OK, it's a long one... I'll try and make it as short as poss. Here goes...
My father battled terminal cancer a few years ago and during this time (4months) I was off sick (from unblemished records of >20 years with a major high st name). I went back to work straight after the funeral. On my first day back my boss resigned, and so I had to cope without a manager. I think I did a pretty good job of covering a lot of his work as well as mine until the new boss was appointed too. Anyway, new boss was appointed about 3 months later, but was complete opposite of my old, caring boss. He was shock to the system and I found his tactics nothing short of bullying. Around 9 months after returning to work he threw a complete wobbler in a meeting room after I refused to do something which broke company policy (just me and him of course - no witnesses, he's far too smart for that (credit where it's due!)) I felt physically threatened by him, and he was screaming the place down... i still remember the words he said - even though it was almost 2 years ago now. I ended up off sick again, with stress, and put on anti-dep's (which I'm still on). he denied everything, work threatened to stop my pay (as they were adding previous time off into the mix), so I was forced to go back with this unresolved. At first, things were manageable, and he wasn't too bad, but as other managers left, his bully boy tactics started again. He again told me to do something which was against company policy, and could have cost the company millions but I refused. Because I refused, he took me in a meeting room one day and flipped again... I couldn't hack it, so I apologised and walked out. I complained to his boss, but my manager got to him first and when I met with the higher boss he immediately dismissed my claim. He just said it wasn't bullying, it was performance management.... i wasn't even aware I was being watched in terms of performance... nobody had told me anything and in actual fact, I'd just covered my boss's job for a couple of months whilst he was going through a cancer scare. Also, all of my performance reviews were fine... so why? I then submitted a grievance, which the higher boss appointed one of his friends to hear, so I challenged it. They've now appointed somebody more appropriate so am awaiting the outcome, but following some more bullying by my boss I've now ended up on the sick again as I couldn't take any more. I went to tell my doc so it could be put on my records and ended up bawling my eyes out, shaking and looking like a freak. This guy doesn't have a clue what he's done to me. My self esteem is microscopic now.
Anyway, I'm now wondering... can they hold a poor performer review, and sack me whilst im not there? or can they decide I've been off too much and sack me for that? even though it's them that have done this to me?
If I go back, like last time, it will remain unresolved and keep happening. If I stay off I'm scared I could lost my long standing career.
Feels like a game of chess... like they move, I move, they move... all tactics. I just want out now, cant take any more, but likewise it's a well paid job any I can afford to leave.
Any and all advise very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Sarah

Uncertain

Short answer - yes.

If you are unable to do your job long term then they may be able to end your employment.

However.....

IF you can prove they caused your illness then you MAY have a personal injury claim against them.

If you have lost your job then any compensation you get for the injury claim (if successful of course) should take account of these losses.

marybelle01

It is very, very difficult to prove that an employer has caused psychiatric injury through work related causes. It isn't quite a simple as you saying that they caused the stress, because there are complex rules set down by the Court of Appeal that need to be applied to any such claims, which involve testing things such as whether there has been a breach of the duty of care, and whether other factors are or could be responsible for the illness. There are 16 points of test applied and the reality is that it is very difficult to evidence. In particular, one difficulty you would face would be the fact that you had had a substantial amount of time off sick when your father was ill, so there is evidence of a pre-existing condition which in no way related to the workplace, and this would make it far more difficult for you because the employer is able to argue that the damage was done by personal circumstances and that you simply became less capable of dealing with situations in the workplace after this.

Your previous complaints have been dealt with by the employer and you have been unable to substantiate your claims so they haven't been upheld. Your take on this was that you went back with the situation unresolved, but this isn't really true. The employer didn't find in your favour and that is a different thing. I'm not saying that your claims weren't true, but the fact is that the employer has said that - they are no doubt stacking up a case that says that your claims were investigated and found to be unsubstantiated, that you have had significant periods of stress related illness going back long before the period that you started complaining, and that this is all down to the fact that you have never really got over your fathers death and the impact his illness had on you, and that is what your real problem is. They'll then show that they tried to deal with this by supporting you through managing your performance more closely - managing performance doesn't have to be about formal procedures and poor performance, and may be about "additional support" to somebody who is obviously struggling to cope. They will be able to twist everything and it's really easy for them to do this.

So I wouldn't place any reliance on your being able to sue them if you lost your job, and it is certainly possible for them to call your capability into question and dismiss if you have a lot of sick leave, provided they follow the correct process. Realistically, if your grievance isn't upheld, and I don't have a lot of hope that you will get very far with it, then your choices are to go back to work, stay off sick until the employer does something about the sick leave, or find another job.

ktothema

This may well come down to, as Marybelle01 has said, whether the condition can be called pre-existing or not. Was the time off you had when your father was dying down to stress too? I imagine so, but if not the work related cause of the stress is easier to isolate from that caused by grief.

I've been in a similar situation where I was forced to step up into a manager's role for months, then was treated terribly on their return thanks to their higher management praising me. The irony being I never wanted his job, I just did it because it had to be done and I just wanted to sort the mess that was my proper job out (thanks to having to prioritise urgent only stuff during that time) and go back peacefully to my normal role. I cracked immensly under that without the added pressure of a terrible bereavment, so I don't think your feelings are unreasonable here.

The problem is that you've been off a long time, so they can start the process of getting you out of your job if they deem you unable to do it - so long as they follow procedure of course. I don't think they can hold a poor performance review whilst you're not there, but your ill health could be your downfall (ironic isnt it?).

Does your company have an Occupation Health department? If you are going off sick at work with stress a lot, they may be able to recommend some adjustments. Although, the company doesn't have to, and nor do they always listen.

I hope your greivance goes well for you.

Errata

I think you need to be very, very honest with yourself about what happened. You say an action of yours 'could have cost the company millions'. That sounds quite an exaggeration unless you have a very senior position within your company, and it doesn't appear that you have.
The manager 'screamed the place down'. Are you and he the sole workers on the premises? If not, why did no other employee burst into the room to find out who was being murdered? If others were on the premises will they act as witnesses to the manager 'screaming the place down'?
In this case it would appear that there is your truth, the manager's truth, and somewhere amongst all this lies the actual truth. It would be sensible if you could get your truth as close the actual truth as you possibly can.

j.e.j.

If you've been there more than 20 years you must have some rights, surely? Would a union rep be able to help you out here?

You clearly loathe this new boss, I'm not saying without reason, but at the end of the day unfortunately these big companies can be VERY hierarchical. They look more kindly on those who brown-nose to the person above them. You sound like the sort of person who knows the job inside-out after all this time, and takes ownership of things. There's possibly now a battle of wills between you and this newbie manager, who is doing things the wrong way, in your opinion?

I do sympathise, I have also had the nit-wit boss from hell, (who was also quite sneaky) and I know it can make life hellishly stressful. Members of the team came up with a number of ways of dealing with him, one of which was to say to him that you're not having any conversation with him unless there's a third person present. That way you won't be in a meeting room on your own with him, and it can never simply be your word against his.

Hope some of this has been of help. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

mynameistallulah

Errata wrote: »

I think you need to be very, very honest with yourself about what happened.

I have to agree with this - the OP appears to automatically assume a negative motive by the employer:

ilovemyspecs wrote: »

work threatened to stop my pay (as they were adding previous time off into the mix), so I was forced to go back with this unresolved.

This was not a threat, it was advice that your sick pay entitlement was ending. No one forced you to go back, you chose to because your sick pay was ending.

My advice would be to seek new employment. As marybelle01 has pointed out, the likelihood of winning a claim for psychiatric injury is low, and it could drag on for a long time. For the sake of your health, you need to make a break and move on.

ilovemyspecs

j.e.j. wrote: »

If you've been there more than 20 years you must have some rights, surely? Would a union rep be able to help you out here?

Hi, thanks for your post. Yes, I have a senior rep on the case, and they are very supportive of my position. Even they can't believe what has gone on here, and yes, as another person has posted, it does sound very dramatic, but believe it or not, it is fact.

mynameistallulah wrote: »

I have to agree with this - the OP appears to automatically assume a negative motive by the employer:

This was not a threat, it was advice that your sick pay entitlement was ending. No one forced you to go back, you chose to because your sick pay was ending.

OK, possibly the wrong choice of word....not sure I'd use the word "chose" though.

j.e.j. wrote: »

If you've been there more than 20 years you must have some rights, surely? Would a union rep be able to help you out here?

You clearly loathe this new boss, I'm not saying without reason, but at the end of the day unfortunately these big companies can be VERY hierarchical. They look more kindly on those who brown-nose to the person above them. You sound like the sort of person who knows the job inside-out after all this time, and takes ownership of things. There's possibly now a battle of wills between you and this newbie manager, who is doing things the wrong way, in your opinion?

I do sympathise, I have also had the nit-wit boss from hell, (who was also quite sneaky) and I know it can make life hellishly stressful. Members of the team came up with a number of ways of dealing with him, one of which was to say to him that you're not having any conversation with him unless there's a third person present. That way you won't be in a meeting room on your own with him, and it can never simply be your word against his.

Hope some of this has been of help. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Wow, you sound like you've worked where I do ! With regard to meeting rooms, unfortunately, I questioned this with HR, and said I didn't want to have to go into a meeting room alone with him. They said i don't have a choice.... great eh !?

j.e.j.

call their bluff

phrase it more like: I am not having any conversation with X unless there's a third person present

rather than: I don't want to talk to X on my own..

If they say well you've got to, say you have a legal right to have another person there if you're feeling threatened or intimidated. No idea if that's the case, btw, but you could try it..

Yes, our working environments do sound a bit alike. I am glad I don't have to work in an place like that anymore. I must say it did give me a very jaded view of people and the workplace in general.

duchy

I do sympathize
I worked with a manager like this and it is very difficult.

As the company is a national one could you request a transfer to a different location -Frankly a longer commute sounds a better situation than dealing with this level of stress.

missprice

it makes me angry that people like your boss can do this a and get away with it.
having been through similar stuff the way I dealt (until I found another job) was to always have conversations in the open never in a enclosed space and always have a witness or 3 handy. also if you are asked to do something that will be detrimental to the business then say 'soon as you send me that in writing/email I shall begin'
then if anything ever comes of it you have proof that you did not start the process.
oh and one of my sneaky bosses had a bent of sending these emails in a very undefined manner, so I would reply asking for clarification.
made her mad as all hell but it made the point that she could not use me and attempt to get me in trouble.:)