An odd CSA/death related question

GobbledyGook

If someone owed thousands in maintenance, but the PWC predeceased them and the child is now an adult would the debt be required to be paid when the person who owed the money died? Or does a CSA debt die when a PWC dies or the child turns 18? There would be some money owned to the government as the PWC was on benefits so that I'm assume would still be owed from their estate?

It's not an actual situation I'm in. It came up in discussion with my cousin when we heard some news about someone with a terminal illness. They evaded the CSA for many years and we're both just curious now about what would happen.

millwall34

GobbledyGook wrote: »

If someone owed thousands in maintenance, but the PWC predeceased them and the child is now an adult would the debt be required to be paid when the person who owed the money died?

If the deceased PWC is still owed money then the executor can still call in any debts.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

Or does a CSA debt die when a PWC dies or the child turns 18?

If the children are over 18 or attain 18, the debt never dies with the CSA, but if the children are under 18 then the appointed guardians can claim maintenance via the CSA.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

There would be some money owned to the government as the PWC was on benefits so that I'm assume would still be owed from their estate?

Are we still talking about the PWCs estate being owed money? Or now, a deceased NRP owing money to a surviving PWC?

If this is deceased PWC and the money is owed to the Secretary of State then it can still be recovered from the surviving NRP.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

It's not an actual situation I'm in. It came up in discussion with my cousin when we heard some news about someone with a terminal illness. They evaded the CSA for many years and we're both just curious now about what would happen.

If the NRP has died owing money, then the CSA can recover the sum due from the estate via the NRPs executor regardless whether the sums are owed to the SOS or a surviving PWC.

If the estate is not in funds then the debt is either written off by the PWC as a lost cause, or, if the sum is owed to the SoS, it becomes entombed on CSA records for posterity.

GobbledyGook

Thanks for that - I think I totally confused my original question.

The NRP is the one who is terminally ill. There will be money in his estate.

The PWC died a few years ago. The children are over 18 now.

I figured the money he owes to the SoS will be recovered from his estate, but wondered about the sum he owed the PWC. Will that then be due to her estate and passed onto her children (who she willed her estate too)?

kevin137

In theory the debt is passed to her estate, and should be included as a matter of course, if that happens is another story, but if the PWC died the solicitor dealing with the estate should be notified of the debt, as the CSA would need formally notifying that the debt is now owed to the estate...

It makes no different about the NRP as if he dies, then the debt would be collectable from his estate wether it was owed to the PWC the SOS or the Estate...

millwall34

GobbledyGook wrote: »

Thanks for that - I think I totally confused my original question.

The NRP is the one who is terminally ill. There will be money in his estate.

There is no CSA regulation that relieves him of liability but the reality is he may be supported by the state due to his illness and any assessment is probably meaningless.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

The PWC died a few years ago. The children are over 18 now.

If the money is owed to the SoS then on death of the NRP, his executor applies for grant of probate at the Probate Registry and the issue of the grant notifies various government departments e.g. pensions and others, however the CSA the issies an order for a sum to be "made over to the commission". The order is rather threatening in grammar and implies the executor is liable for the sum if he fails to comply with the Order.

I received such an Order several years ago as an executor and just returned it as "no funds" because I control what the deceased testimentary dispositions allowed under the Administrationof Estates Act 1925 are and I simply blew the estate on dispositions.

NRPs who snuff it while still owing money to the CSA arent going to be people with sizeable estates. This means many NRPs fall under the £15,000 estate value and dont actually need a grant of probate for the estate to be wound up, therefore it places them under the CSA radar because the DWP doesnt at the issue of the death certificate to trigger the issue of the maveover order (no executor named on death certificates).

If the NRP is young and has not made a Will at all, then the estate can be spirited away by his nearest relative under Section 46 of the Administration of Estates Act 1925 before the CSA discover the NRP has died. This is because by not making a will, there is no published executor, and no address for the CSA to send the makeover order to.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

I figured the money he owes to the SoS will be recovered from his estate, but wondered about the sum he owed the PWC. Will that then be due to her estate and passed onto her children (who she willed her estate too)?

The PWC becomes a creditor to the deceased estate and makes a claim on the deceased NRP's estate via the deceased executor, but cannot rely on CSA emforcement gear (this is designed for NRPs who are still alive!). The legislation in this case, is called the Inheritance (Provision of Family and Dependants) Act 1975 that enables a surviving dependent to claim from the deceased estate financial support. The claimant can be anyone who was supported by the deceased during their lifetime. A full explanation of how I(PFD)A 1975 works is well beyond this forum discussion, but should not be confused with ancillary relief.

If the PWC has deceased, then the executor calls in the debt provided the NRP has the money, if he doent then the debt dies. If the children are still under 18 then the NRP will probably have right of guardianship regardless what the deceased will says anyway because the Children Act 1989 was amended in 2006 that makes the NRP the PWC if he so chooses provided his name is on the childs birth certificate. Guardianship can only be assigned to a non-bio parent in their will if the deceased was the "sole surviving parent", even if that parent has legally adopted the child.

GobbledyGook

Thanks for that.

There will be a real irony in this one if his death means that his children eventually get what he was due to give their mother. He kept his home and various other things in his mother's name for many years, but changed them into his after the death of the PWC.

millwall34 - He's not being supported by the state. He's a man who has a fair bit of money and assets, but sadly for reasons I'll never understand decided that the day he left the home he shared with his children that his responsibility to them ended. He has successfully dodged the CSA on numerous occasions, mainly by keeping most of his assets and income from the family business in the name of his parents, however his parents are no longer around and he believed that his debt died when his ex-wife died.

It'll be very interesting to see how this one goes. It's a sad situation all round.

fannyanna

Has he remarried?

GobbledyGook

No, he never remarried or had other children.

millwall34

GobbledyGook wrote: »

Thanks for that.

There will be a real irony in this one if his death means that his children eventually get what he was due to give their mother. He kept his home and various other things in his mother's name for many years, but changed them into his after the death of the PWC.

If this is a person of means then his assets being held by his mum could atrract Inheritance tax on her death, and be taxed again on his death. There are more tax efficient ways to dodge then CSA.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

millwall34 - He's not being supported by the state. He's a man who has a fair bit of money and assets, but sadly for reasons I'll never understand decided that the day he left the home he shared with his children that his responsibility to them ended. He has successfully dodged the CSA on numerous occasions, mainly by keeping most of his assets and income from the family business in the name of his parents, however his parents are no longer around and he believed that his debt died when his ex-wife died.

In this case he is essentially right because if the estate has no cash then it cannot pay its liabilities unless business assets are themselves turned into cash. That probably wont happen because its bsuiness assets and its more then likely exempt from Inheritance Tax because business assets fall under the exemptions given under sections 103 to 114 of the Act.

He doesnt need to keep business assets in someone elses name to dodge the CSA. Only cash (or assets being turned into cash) can be made over to the Commission by the executor. but as I have said before, executors have a tendency to squander the cash on expensive testimentary dipositions - such as the funeral and even his own fees for acting as the executor - leaving no money available. This is especially true if the executor is a family member or a close friend, at best, a beneficiary to the estate! The executor will receive threats from the CSA that if his fees are too high then liability could pass from the deceased estate to the executor for failure to pay the sum over to the commission.

GobbledyGook wrote: »

It'll be very interesting to see how this one goes. It's a sad situation all round.

If you want some further reading on this then Regulation 11 of the Child Support (Management of Payment and Arrears) Regulations 2009 which came into force in January 2010 may be useful albeit simplistic. http://www.familylaw.co.uk/system/uploads/attachments/0000/1358/si20093151.pdf however, I havn't found any regulation that enables the CSA to revive a time expired debt (section 2 of the Limitation Act 1980). If Parliament had intended to revive a time expire debt, the legislation would have had to done so explicitly.

This means if the NRP died more than 6 years after the last communication from the CSA regarding the liability, the executor can decline the Order for making over the sum, unless regulation to the contrary is proved.

GobbledyGook

It's not business assets I was talking about millwall.

He used to hide his wages/dividends through his parents and his house was in his mothers name for many years. After the NRP died he transferred his house back into his own name and has been keeping money in his own bank etc.

Any executor would have to go some to legitimately spend the entire sale proceeds of a house!

Apparently he has no will either, so there won't be an executor chosen and anything left should pass to his children anyway (in theory).

Ah well, it'll all come out in the wash eventually.

Thank you for all the replies.

KiethBEN

So what should be included as a matter of course, if that happens is another story, but if the PWC died the solicitor dealing with the estate should be notified of the debt, as the CSA would need formally notifying that the debt is now owed to the estate.