Greek Election Too Close To Call

CLAPTON

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Depends what you are looking for. If it's protection, the ND party will help in this respect (at least the best party for it). If you need to feed a family, then the ND party won't provide this, as they have signed up to further tough austerity, which means more job losses etc.

If you don't have a job to worry about, that's not such an issue, hence the wide age range difference in the polls.

Seems, based on the news, the greek people, and politicians from the ND party have simply accepted riots and social unrest will take place via the younger generations (worse than we have seen so far), and that's somewhat acceptable so long as they get the bailout.

Same sort of age split is happening in sSpain too. I find it interesting from an outsiders point of view as the recession seemingly hits the younger harder and harder throughout europe....but now we have a real life situation where democracy is actually split bewteen younger and older generations and real social unrest about the age divide is starting to happen. Not that I'm saying I will enjoy watching it, just find it interesting as we have the same situation in the UK, where you could argue the older generation are fairing better and creating policies to make sure of it.

I'm not quite sure how a further bailout and more job losses etc actually helps Greece pay back the debts...but I guess that's for another time.

I'm sure I buy the young /old split;

is there really only two ages?

or maybe
under 18
18- 25
25-40
40-60
over 60 retired

would be a better basis for the divide if indeed its a valid classification

In all recessions the 18 - 25s do badly in the sense they have no work experience so have great diffiuclty in getting jobs but in general are supported by their parents.

for the rest those with actual pensions aren't too badly affected except that their savings are producing little income

the others are all affected pretty equally

Graham_Devon

CLAPTON wrote: »

I'm sure I buy the young /old split;

is there really only two ages?

or maybe
under 18
18- 25
25-40
40-60
over 60 retired

would be a better basis for the divide if indeed its a valid classification

In all recessions the 18 - 25s do badly in the sense they have no work experience so have great diffiuclty in getting jobs but in general are supported by their parents.

for the rest those with actual pensions aren't too badly affected except that their savings are producing little income

the others are all affected pretty equally

Well I guess it's up to every indivuidual whether they buy it, but the parties themselves are sold on the idea, as it's what people are voting for, and enough of them have told the media and politicians why.

Sapphire

Even if Greece remains in the Euro, I don't know how it is going to get out of the mess it is in and achieve parity with other, more efficient and productive countries in the Euro, no matter how many bailouts it receives – and there is surely a finite number of those that it can get.

Where are its sources of income going to be?

ruggedtoast

From the Groaner:

10.49pm: 10.40pm: Syriza may have come second but Alexis Tsipras and his supporters don't seem to have noticed.

Our correspondent Helena Smith says a euphoric Tsipras has been addressing supporters – and ignoring congratulatory statements world leaders have been sending to the "pro-European" new Democracy party.

Helena Smith Byline Photograph: Guardian
The far-left Syriza party may have come second but there is growing evidence tonight that "first is second."

Speaking before thousands of cheering supporters waving red and white flags (some emblazoned with the hammer and sickle) outside Athens' ornate university building Tsipras told the crowd: "Some may think that they won the elections tonight but they did not. The people won. The policies of austerity have been defeated. They will not be able to push forward with them either in Greece or Europe."

Tsipras, who turns 38 next month, was joined on the stage by the World War II hero Manolis Glezos who in a first act of resistance against Nazi rule tore down the swastika from the Acropolis. The 92-year-old hailed the left's capture of 27.1 % of the vote as "the beginning of the end."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/greek-election-blog-2012/2012/jun/17/greek-elections-greece-polls-live

We need a few more countries to rebel against this kleptocratic EU neo-liberal pantomime now.

Every blow levelled at the EU is a blow for democracy.

Down with the euro!

Generali

How is the EU Neo-Liberal? They are hugely interventionist.

In Aus it is being reported that New Democracy have won, probably by enough to need very little support from other parties in Parliament.

Zorz_2

No, that's not correct. ND has 129 seats, they need at least 22 more. Here are the official results, in english:

http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012b/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22level%22,%22params%22:{%22level%22:%22epik%22,%22id%22:1}}

just copy/paste it

Some quick observations:

Voter turnout only 62,46%. This is shockingly low, at a time when the stakes are so high. Apart from people who are in hospitals etc or live abroad and genuinly couldn't make it, there is no excuse for this indifference. Note that, although the Constitution of Greece stipulates that there should be a provision for expat Greek citizens to be able to vote while abroad, no relevant law has been enacted yet (apart from the European Parliament elections). So, I couldn't catch a tube to Holland Park and vote at the embassy...

Until (and including) the previous elections, voters could also choose a number (depending on the size of the district) of specific candidates by making a mark next to the candidate's name in the ballot. In these elections, voters no longer have the ability to choose directly the MPs that represent them (they are elected by a list, drafted by the party). One more blow to democracy.

I was hoping that now that the real fascist identity of Golden Dawn was out in the open, most of their May voters would realise what they did and vote something else instead. I was wrong, they only lost 16k votes. There is no excuse this time. I am ashamed of this result, and at the same time shocked by how desperate and ignorant people are.

At a time of a large number of people turning to the left, the Communist Party (KKE) failed to capitalise this. In fact, this is their worst result since 1974 (a quick googling shows that their second worst was 4.54% in 1993). It's no wonder, as I feel that people got fed up by their complete denial of everything. Although their critisism is often spot on, they are an autistic stalinist party who -quite literally- say no to absolutely everything!

PASOK was also on the way to become largely irrelevant, unfortunately it seems that ND will form a coalition government with them, effectively 'staying the course' on the same policies, of exactly the same political elite that brought us into this mess. BTW, here is a lovely video of Venizelos, the leader of PASOK being grilled by an ordinary citizen. Sorry, can't find english subtitles but his reaction is quite telling. And absolutely priceless. Basically, the guy asking the question says that since Siemens openly admitted that they bribed both large parties, Pasok is really in no position to clean up the mess (that themselves largely created in the first place!) because among other reasons, Siemens still holds them by the b*lls. The fun stuff starts around the 4min mark. Venizelos replies that this is merely unfounded vulgar accusations, and that they did their "catharsis".

BTW, Venizelos himself was among the members of the parliamentary inquiry that aquitted the former Defense Minister Akis Tsohatzopoulos of any wrongdoing back in 2005. Tsohatzopoulos has now been indicted for tax evasion and money laundering of huge bribes he received while in office. There is a torrent of evidence surfacing, of elaborate real estate deals with offshore shell companies owned by him, his wife, his daughter, mother in law, cousins etc with an astonishing ping-pong game and transactions via offshore accounts and a lavish lifestyle, completely disproportionate to his declared income. Only earlier this month, a witness testified about a swiss bank account with $850 millions! Oh, and also note that he can only be tried for tax evasion and money laundering and not for actually receiving these bribes, because of a law slipstreamed by Venizelos himself in the 2001 constitutional amendment, giving members of the govermment legal immuity for virtually anything! They can almost get away with murder...

Well, tomorrow is (not) another day. As the asian markets have opened, the EUR gets a little boost with the news. But I expect tomorrow that politicials will follow the same ritual of self-centered procrastination as the country slowly but surely descends further and further into chaos...

pqrdef

Odd that there are so many small parties, splitting the vote, when the electoral arithmetic would favour fewer larger parties, i.e. form your coalition before the election.

Anyway, all the Germans and others who tried to scare the Greeks with the Grexit threat appear to have succeeded. Treat the election as a referendum on the euro, they said. Well they've got their decision, so now they'll have to respect it and forget all about Greece leaving the euro. And if devaluation can't save Greece, they'll have to think of something else. Maybe they should have been more careful what they wished for.

Paradoxically, if the new pro-bailout government wanted to renegotiate bailout terms, it could have quite a strong hand.

ChiefGrasscutter

If I was Merkel I'd be putting out a hard message this morning....along of the lines of "Right, you have voted for continuation of austerity and the bailouts - now deliver - and no, there will be no variation/easing of the terms - if you wanted that you should have voted differently"

CLAPTON

it seems tragic to me that not one single commentator or politician said somelike

'oh good greece has stayed in the Euro so now we will see a reduction in unemployment and a return to a growing economy'

lvader

CLAPTON wrote: »

it seems tragic to me that not one single commentator or politician said somelike

'oh good greece has stayed in the Euro so now we will see a reduction in unemployment and a return to a growing economy'

Why should they?, although they may have been compelled to say "Good the world as we know it will not end this month."

People still don't understand that things like QE and bailouts aren't there to make things better, they are there to stop things from getting much worse.