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The default delusion: Inevitable & desirable

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  • kabayiri
    kabayiri Posts: 22,740 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts
    CLAPTON wrote: »
    ...
    with the knowledge we have now, then I would not put any money in the bank unless the government guarenteed the money as I believe that most UK banks are hiding massive bad debts and I believe most rational people would do likewise

    This is the point. Banks believe they can make risky loans safe in the knowledge that domestic savers will continue to save with them.

    I don't know of a perfect solution, but I do believe that if banks carried a risk then savers would act as consumers and seek out saving institutions which match the risk profile they personally want. In turn, banks might have to consider how they attract savings.
  • pqrdef
    pqrdef Posts: 4,552 Forumite
    kabayiri wrote: »
    I don't know of a perfect solution, but I do believe that if banks carried a risk then savers would act as consumers and seek out saving institutions which match the risk profile they personally want.
    Mattress it is then.

    Borrowers' need to borrow is much greater than savers' need for interest - as shown by the fact that most of the savings on deposit are earning next to nothing. People keep their money in the bank because they reckon it's safer than keeping it in the house.

    The need for finance for mortgages and business is only going to be met by providing savers with a government guarantee.
    "It will take, five, 10, 15 years to get back to where we need to be. But it's no longer the individual banks that are in the wrong, it's the banking industry as a whole." - Steven Cooper, head of personal and business banking at Barclays, talking to Martin Lewis
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Masomnia wrote: »
    Perhaps not, but perhaps I would've taken a greater interest if I thought my savings were at risk?


    given that all the masters of the universe, governor of the BoE, equivalent in USA and every developed country in the world plus thousands of financial analysts all over the world missed the financial meltdown, do you truely think that ordinary people are capable of spotting the next financial meltdown ?

    No, the vast majority would opt for national savings or the mattress.
  • Masomnia
    Masomnia Posts: 19,506 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    CLAPTON wrote: »
    given that all the masters of the universe, governor of the BoE, equivalent in USA and every developed country in the world plus thousands of financial analysts all over the world missed the financial meltdown, do you truely think that ordinary people are capable of spotting the next financial meltdown ?

    No, the vast majority would opt for national savings or the mattress.

    It isn't about spotting the meltdown. It's about choosing a bank that has a reputation for being safer, which banks like Nationwide have had. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think it would create space in the market for banks that advertised the fact that all they did was bog standard savings and mortgages, and didn't dabble in complex instruments.

    I think when pretty much everyone's savings are covered there's a moral hazard, just as when the banks themselves believe they'll be bailed out.
    “I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 14 June 2012 at 6:23PM
    Masomnia wrote: »
    It isn't about spotting the meltdown. It's about choosing a bank that has a reputation for being safer, which banks like Nationwide have had. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think it would create space in the market for banks that advertised the fact that all they did was bog standard savings and mortgages, and didn't dabble in complex instruments.

    I think when pretty much everyone's savings are covered there's a moral hazard, just as when the banks themselves believe they'll be bailed out.


    Lloyds was considered a a totally boring safe bank but was only saved by a massive injection of government cash let alone the savings guarentee.

    In my view Nationwide was on a knife edge (all those mortgages with no 'collar') and only saved by the certainty the government would bail out we ordinary savers.


    I would say if there was even a suggestion of the government withdrawing the savers guarentee the BSs and banks would be wiped out in a few days.

    I'm sure they wouldn't even consider it.
  • pqrdef
    pqrdef Posts: 4,552 Forumite
    Masomnia wrote: »
    I think it would create space in the market for banks that advertised the fact that all they did was bog standard savings and mortgages, and didn't dabble in complex instruments.
    And yet small building societies fail much more often than big banks.
    "It will take, five, 10, 15 years to get back to where we need to be. But it's no longer the individual banks that are in the wrong, it's the banking industry as a whole." - Steven Cooper, head of personal and business banking at Barclays, talking to Martin Lewis
  • grizzly1911
    grizzly1911 Posts: 9,965 Forumite
    kabayiri wrote: »
    Just make the announcement which should have been made in the crunch.

    "Let the private banks fail"

    Why the state should bail out private institutions is beyond me. Yes, savers would lose money, but then savers don't complain when their savings are earning interest do they?

    Clapton at post 8 makes the point but in addition:-

    Depositors are just that they are merely placing their money somewhere "safe" for which they may get amodest return to encourage them and in recognition that the institution can make a return on their money as a Bank.

    The return the depositor gets is in know sufficient to warrant capital risk.

    Shareholders risk their capital by seeking to make a gain both in capital and dividend.

    I have a VI as I am both.
    "If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....

    "big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    kabayiri wrote: »
    Just make the announcement which should have been made in the crunch.

    "Let the private banks fail"

    Governments are in a far worse positions than the banks.
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    Governments are in a far worse positions than the banks.


    But the UK government can print more money.
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    CLAPTON wrote: »
    But the UK government can print more money.

    And what does this solve?
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