Help! (Debt Collectors) what to do?

Silas_

Hello, I’ve been on the MSE newsletter list for a while now and have just joined the forums today as I’m pretty confused about what to do next and after googling for an hour or so, thought I’d give this a shot.

I moved out of my last address (after the breakdown of a seven year relationship) last year and got my mail redirected to my brothers address.

I thought the bills were up to date, however the Council Tax apparently wasn’t. I’m not the best at going through mail and can’t remember if I ever got anything from them, I guess I must have done but didn’t do anything about it, I was very much down in the dumps and really couldn’t care less.

The council passed it onto Newlyn Debt Collectors, who somehow got hold of my brothers address and have been sending me letters and today harassed my brothers wife by turning up with a van and threatening to seize goods. She was in tears and they demanded id and then they left telling her that they would be back if ‘I’ didn’t contact them as they knew that I was in contact.

I never thought it would come to this as I had already sent letters back to them telling them that I wasn’t at the address. In fact today they received confirmation of that (checking passports, no less) and still left with the threat of their return to collect a debt at an address where the debtor doesn’t reside. I mean that’s just plain crazy, isn’t it?

I mean this is the bully boy tactics that makes me not want to even give them 1p and not get in touch, but now they are placing stress and threatening further harassment to my brothers family and this just doesn’t seem right. I mean this is pure !!!!! type techniques, very dodgy behaviour. Is this even legal?

Ok, you can say I’m a heartless git (!) but I’m not, I’m currently unemployed and really trying to just get by until I find something. I don’t want to tell them where I’m living (it’s a hell hole..) and do not want the stress of dealing with them here and certainly do not want anyone else having to deal with them on my behalf, so that’s why I need the advice on what to do next..

It looks like they’re saying its for £1,400 (but that seems awfully high..) and I’m tempted to just go down the bankrupt route as I have other debts as well (although they’re not using the same ‘tactics’) just to move on and have a clear slate.

Any ideas, help or advice would be greatly appreciated as I’m not sure how best to proceed and am pretty annoyed that they’ve done this.

Silas.

RobertoMoir

If this is for council tax then they are acting as bailiffs, not as debt collectors. A very important distinction. This gives them extra rights to address the debt with the debtor (you, in other words) but it also gives you some protection against undue harassment too. This doesn't mean they aren't allowed to visit your brother's property if there's reason to believe you're living there (say if you get mail via that address), simply that they have to behave during the visit... and that strictly speaking, its down to them to show that you live at the address they believe you live at, not for the person living there to prove you do not.

In any case, what they do not have is the right to harass, threaten or remove goods from your family or friends.

What you need to do is address this debt with the council concerned (you can go to prison for non payment of council tax, so you shouldn't just ignore this!) and at the same time complain to the council about the actions of the bailiffs, who are acting as agents of the council and therefore the council share responsibility for their actions as agents.

What your brother needs to do is complain to the bailiff company (and send a copy to the relevant council) in his own right, and tell them (not ask them "is it true that") that you've both taken advice from a bailiff who has advised you/them that they have absolutely no rights to be on his property once they are made aware that you do not live there, let alone to make any threats to remove goods from your brother's property, and certainly not to carry those threats out.

It should be made clear to them that in addition to the complaint your brother is (should be) making to the council about their previous, unacceptable behaviour, if they return again your brother will contact the police to report a trespass and the county court who issued the bailiffs' certificate to complain about their behaviour.

They may attempt to bluster about all this and tell you I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure they'll hesitate to actually call anyone's bluff once they realise you and your brother have been clued up on your rights here.

I hope that makes sense, and helps you with what to do next.

Silas_

Thanks so much for getting back to me.

Do I need to contact the bailiff to tell him that I’m going to be going to the Council to try and organise payment directly? And can I tell him to simply back off and I will not be dealing with him at all from this point on. I guess that he just wants his commission and will be upset, but if I go to the council will him and his firm be in any way still entitled to anything from me?

My brothers just emailed me the bailiffs phone number and obviously wants me to contact the agent to make sure that he doesn’t return to his home and create the same scene as he did earlier today.

If I go back to the Council, does that mean that the other ‘costs’ that Newlyn are claiming will be taken off the total debt? Will the council simply tell me that they’ve passed it onto the bailiffs and can no longer deal with it directly?

Just want to clarify these issues before proceeding, so hope you don’t mind me asking. Thanks in advance, Silas.

vax2002

Contact them immediately and give them the address of where you live and stop hiding behind your brothers wife.

RobertoMoir

Silas_ wrote: »

Thanks so much for getting back to me.

Do I need to contact the bailiff to tell him that I’m going to be going to the Council to try and organise payment directly? And can I tell him to simply back off and I will not be dealing with him at all from this point on.

No. You need to speak to the council. They have obtained a magistrates court liability order against you for non payment of council tax and instructed bailiffs to recover the debt from you. The bailiff will only take instruction from the council at this point.

Silas_ wrote: »

I guess that he just wants his commission and will be upset, but if I go to the council will him and his firm be in any way still entitled to anything from me?

Technically speaking, they are entitled to proceed against you for any legitimately generated costs/fees incurred as a result of enforcing the payment of the debt. As a practical matter, if the council recall the debt from the bailiff these will probably be dropped, but this is for the council and the bailiff to decide.

Note "legitimately generated" in my comment above though. If I were you, I'd be asking for a breakdown of the account and all charges on it at this point, so you can determine which charges are legitimate and which are not.

Silas_ wrote: »

My brothers just emailed me the bailiffs phone number and obviously wants me to contact the agent to make sure that he doesn’t return to his home and create the same scene as he did earlier today.

Not being funny, but can you blame him? Even though I'm very aware of my rights and the bailiff's rights in this kind of situation and not really likely to be intimidated by their threats, I'd still be less than happy with any family member or friend who caused them to knock on my door, so I can imagine your brother and his wife are quite upset by this experience.

Silas_ wrote: »

If I go back to the Council, does that mean that the other ‘costs’ that Newlyn are claiming will be taken off the total debt? Will the council simply tell me that they’ve passed it onto the bailiffs and can no longer deal with it directly?

They will tell you that, yes. You and/or your brother need to complain about the bailiff's behaviour to give them reason to recall the debt.

Silas_

vax2002 wrote: »

Contact them immediately and give them the address of where you live and stop hiding behind your brothers wife.

Not quite what I was doing, and it’s a good thing you didn't respond first and I took your advice as it wouldn’t be the best way to proceed. The point is to proceed in a way where the problem is actually solved; a knee jerk reaction such as yours is pretty silly really. You have so many posts, clearly quantity and not quality. Silas.

Silas_

Thanks again, your help here is fantastic..

I don’t blame him (my brother) at all for wanting me to resolve this and make sure they don’t turn up again, if I it came across as I did, I didn’t mean it to.. I swear I have a heart!

I’m just a bit caught off guard today with this and had it down as a problem to solve sometime in the future when my circumstances were better.

I’ll get the letters off tomorrow and will use your advice within them on what to say and hopefully get this resolved properly. Thanks again, Silas.

DVardysShadow

Silas_ wrote: »

Not quite what I was doing, and it’s a good thing you didn't respond first and I took your advice as it wouldn’t be the best way to proceed. The point is to proceed in a way where the problem is actually solved; a knee jerk reaction such as yours is pretty silly really. You have so many posts, clearly quantity and not quality. Silas.

When you post a problem here, you get all kinds of reactions and takes on the situation. Clearly the advice from Roberto has been much more focussed to your situation than that from vax.

But your criticism of vax is unjustified. The advice clearly addresses the immediate problem of the bailiffs giving your brother's wife a hard time. Nobody owes you protection from bailiffs and there is nothing wrong with vax's advice. And it is not the done thing on forums to get shirty with people whose advice you don't like.

vax2002

if the bailiffs fail to find you, you will be issued with a warrant which will ultimately commit you to prison.
Along with everyone else jailed for failure to pay council tax.
You will have plenty of time to jerk your knees then.

By contacting the Bailiffs with your new address you can remove the hassle from your family and then start a payment plan with the collectors and save yourself the warrant .

RobertoMoir

vax2002 wrote: »

if the bailiffs fail to find you, you will be issued with a warrant which will ultimately commit you to prison.
Along with everyone else jailed for failure to pay council tax.
You will have plenty of time to jerk your knees then.

By contacting the Bailiffs with your new address you can remove the hassle from your family and then start a payment plan with the collectors and save yourself the warrant .

If the bailiffs fail to find them, or find them but fail to get payment of the debt, the debt will be returned to the council.

The council then have the option of taking further proceedings in court, which will cause a warrant for arrest to be issued. The debtor, when found, will very likely be bailed to appear at a hearing.

The only options for prison at this point are if the magistrate feels that the reason the debt hasn't been paid is either "willful refusal"(which is self-explanatory) or "culpable neglect", which means that the money was present but the debtor chose to spend it on other non-essential things, e.g. used the money to take a holiday.

As much as I don't believe in sugar-coating things, I don't believe in scaremongering either.

Silas_

DVardysShadow wrote: »

When you post a problem here, you get all kinds of reactions and takes on the situation. Clearly the advice from Roberto has been much more focussed to your situation than that from vax.

But your criticism of vax is unjustified. The advice clearly addresses the immediate problem of the bailiffs giving your brother's wife a hard time. Nobody owes you protection from bailiffs and there is nothing wrong with vax's advice. And it is not the done thing on forums to get shirty with people whose advice you don't like.

DVardy –

No surprise to see you looking out for (I guess) your buddy Vax. I’m not getting shirty with anyone, just trying to resolve a situation that I find myself in, which is what I believe the forums are for and not for people with too much time on their hands to start waving fingers.

You can clearly see that the issue is being dealt with so for Vax to feel the need to get involved is/was pointless. As for your input, great stuff.. it’s not like I have anything else to deal with at the moment. Silas.