Over a gigawatt of solar now installed in the UK.

jamesingram

I read the new UK nuclear station program inc. future waste disposal would cost approx £250 per household. + cost electricity
anyone know the planned output of these stations ?
looking at the above figure this seems quite reasonable relative to PV as i presume the outptut will be considerably larger than 1GW

Martyn1981

EricMears wrote: »

It's not really that significant; either result shows that people complaining about other consumers 'suffering' for our profits isn't something about which we need feel too guilty.

And there's another figure to take into consideration: without this sort of scheme in place, the UK Government might face a 'fine' of hundreds of millions (nobody seems able to give a more exact figure) from the EU. I'm sure the downtrodden poor would rather see us getting the cash than it ending up in the euro-coffers.

If this article posted on the 'Good or Bad' thread by Jamesingram is true, then those 'downtrodden poor' may well benefit in the long term.

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/02/09/solar-pv-reducing-price-of-electricity-in-germany/

rogerblack wrote: »

(Assuming that non-domestic users pass on the price they are charged to the consumer.)

Since larger commercial installs (say 20 to 30kWp+) could about now, start to offer decent returns on investment through savings (without subsidies), then as prices continue to fall, and such installs grow, we could start to see companies passing on their cost savings too. Though admittedly, this could still be another 5 years away, before the numbers are substantial. But still possible.

Ben84 wrote: »

The concern for me is that I believe the same money spent on glass wool for lofts or on improving power plant efficiency would have result in greater pollution cuts than the solar panels provide - and will probably outlast the solar panels.

This is already happening, and through the Green Tariff element of our energy bills (from which FITs is also paid). I agree 100% with these schemes. When I insulated my loft 15 years ago it cost me £90. Today I could go to B&Q or Homebase and buy the same rolls at the subsidised price of £18 all in. Great scheme.

My father and elderly neighbours have all had their cavity walls done for free. I got it done cheaper through the subsidy, about £135 if I remember correctly.

Now with the EPC D rating required for PV FITs, the government is combining both schemes.

Mart.

Martyn1981

jamesingram wrote: »

I read the new UK nuclear station program inc. future waste disposal would cost approx £250 per household. + cost electricity
anyone know the planned output of these stations ?
looking at the above figure this seems quite reasonable relative to PV as i presume the outptut will be considerably larger than 1GW

James, not exactly what you asked, but done some numbers, if only to create a discussion.

Looking on other renewables and technical forums, £5bn seems a low, but reasonable starting point for a 1GW nuclear station.

Generating 1GWh for 1 year = 8,760GWh's pa

For domestic PV to match, that's 8,760,000MWh's / 3.6MWh's (I'm assuming an average 4kWp system in this 'guess')

= 2,433,333 installs, which equals £19.5bn @ £8k cost, or approx £10bn if prices fall to £4k by 2020 (nuclear stations take around 10+ years from planning to commissioning).

Generation should be similar, approx 40 years (nuclear can go 60, but would involve throttling back generation). PV degrades slightly over time, but nuclear will also have scheduled maintenance shutdowns.

So PV costs 2 to 4 times more, but:
practically no annual running costs,
no distribution losses,
modular installs, and expenditure.

So how will the total costs add up, especially when you add on the clean-up and disposal costs. High for nuclear, probably some scrap value for PV?

Nuclear produces a very reliable, predictable and valuable supply, but as such, also produces at night when demand is low. PV production matches the daytime demand curve, but is erratic.

Probably 50% of the panel and inverter costs go as imports, but we are discussing nuclear power with either French or German companies. Also our gas is becoming more and more imported.

PV ticks the green, renewable, and low carbon boxes.
Nuclear only ticks low carbon, but that is a very important box to tick.

Lots of numbers and thoughts. No idea if of any use to anyone, but thought I'd take a wild stab at them.

Mart.

Ben84

Martyn1981 wrote: »

James, not exactly what you asked, but done some numbers, if only to create a discussion.

Looking on other renewables and technical forums, £5bn seems a low, but reasonable starting point for a 1GW nuclear station.

Generating 1GWh for 1 year = 8,760GWh's pa

For domestic PV to match, that's 8,760,000MWh's / 3.6MWh's (I'm assuming an average 4kWp system in this 'guess')

= 2,433,333 installs, which equals £19.5bn @ £8k cost, or approx £10bn if prices fall to £4k by 2020 (nuclear stations take around 10+ years from planning to commissioning).

Generation should be similar, approx 40 years (nuclear can go 60, but would involve throttling back generation). PV degrades slightly over time, but nuclear will also have scheduled maintenance shutdowns.

So PV costs 2 to 4 times more, but:
practically no annual running costs,
no distribution losses,
modular installs, and expenditure.

So how will the total costs add up, especially when you add on the clean-up and disposal costs. High for nuclear, probably some scrap value for PV?

Nuclear produces a very reliable, predictable and valuable supply, but as such, also produces at night when demand is low. PV production matches the daytime demand curve, but is erratic.

Probably 50% of the panel and inverter costs go as imports, but we are discussing nuclear power with either French or German companies. Also our gas is becoming more and more imported.

PV ticks the green, renewable, and low carbon boxes.
Nuclear only ticks low carbon, but that is a very important box to tick.

Lots of numbers and thoughts. No idea if of any use to anyone, but thought I'd take a wild stab at them.

Mart.

That's all interesting. I'd like to add that aside from electricity nuclear also produces large volumes of hot water that we should attempt to use, for example in district heating or for nearby factories and commercial greenhouses. It's not without challenges, but there's a lot of thermal energy available that we just need to connect with users for further pollution savings and a lower cost of energy per unit.

Ben84

Kernel_Sanders wrote: »

Loft insulation has already been massively subsidised. Of course, any sort of insulation will outlast a solar panel eventually, but is hardly a reason for spurning the latter!

I'm now struggling to find the article to link it, but I have been recently reading about how the insulation subsidies are largely coming to an end and that there are still millions of houses with no insulation in the lofts and even more with none in their cavity walls. There have been generous subsidies, but it seems we're far from saturation point and there's still a vast amount of very low cost pollution and energy savings available out there with just cheap glass wool.

A solar panel that makes electricity and saves a gas power plant running quite as much is great, but some glass wool that just stops someone's gas central heating running as much saves the same gas for a lot less money per unit saved. For one solar install you can insulate many houses and the results are very long lasting.

Kernel_Sanders

Ben84 wrote: »

there are still millions of houses with no insulation in the lofts

I suspect most of these will be because they have attics. I think the number of lofts with no insulation at all will be very small indeed.

EricMears

That's all interesting. I'd like to add that aside from electricity nuclear also produces large volumes of hot water that we should attempt to use, for example in district heating or for nearby factories and commercial greenhouses. It's not without challenges, but there's a lot of thermal energy available that we just need to connect with users for further pollution savings and a lower cost of energy per unit.

District heating isn't really on. AFAIK, all nuclear power plants have been built well away from populated areas and not usually close to other factories either. Greenhouse heating sounds a reasonable idea though.