Why Are Rates Of Pay So Low In NI?

wifeforlife

NAR wrote:

So talk with your feet and walk away from them. The more members that do it will make them think twice( if they are capable!).

I did! And let them knew exactly why while I was at it

Cath

blue_monkey_2

Hi, I wondered if I could add my little bit of input from the UK....

Well, we live around 30 driving miles from the centre of London and this might surprise you but within 18 miles you are in the countryside. We have the exact same problems here in the UK as you are all describing for NI so it was quite interesting reading. My husband is on what I would consider a good wage but to be able to afford our own place in this area, where I have lived most of my life, we would need a mortgage of more than 15 times his annual salary, buying is a complete no, no for the likes of average Joe in this area now - my sister and her bf are in the same boat and despite having been together for 7 years live apart as both are in low paid jobs. My husband and I were discussing this a few nights back. Houses are being built with no gardens (and we complain about the kids getting too fat when they can't even play footie in their gardens) and as an exaple, the latest ones, on a main road in the next village are costing £750k, some being built at the top of our estate are in the 600k mark, some 'luxury apartments' just went up for 350k for a 2 bed flat (oh, let's no forget the internal wall you can pull out to make 3 bedrooms though, whoopee). It seems to me that they are clearly trying to make this area a place to live only if you have huge amounts of money to spend, thus getting rid of the working class generations. There are guys in 'The City' who earn more in bonuses than we could ever dream aout winning on the lottery, and these are the people who choose to come live here.

However, we also have the same problems with the migrants coming in to do work for money that we just cannot afford to work for - especially for the supermarket chains from distribution sizes to the stores themselves. People with a family these days cannot live on minimum wage which would bring in around £160 a week I guess - however, yes, I guess someone from abroad paying £70 a week all in to rent a room in a house (with someone who is struggling to meet their own repayments on their property with the rising interest rates - we have a lot of this now) will then have enough money to 'live' and then be able to send money 'home'. Bearing in mind of course, that £50 a week is probably a lot of money in the EE countries they come from and would mean they could quiet happily keep their families on this.

That being said, if I was an employer and paying employees the minimum wage was an option of course I would do it - which business person would not. If people from this area did not want the work for that money and other did then I would employ those that did. It would mean I could keep my costs down and then offer competetive prices. It is a huge vicious circle. In this day and age we cannot afford to pay high prices, this is why we trundle off to the supermarket rather than do all our shopping on the high street, my food bill would treble what I pay now if I bought it locally, I cannot afford that so I go to Tesco, but then Tesco are employing the migrants who will work for minimum pay so they can keep their costs down - so where does it all end?

I think the situations you are describing are now nationwide throughout Great Britain, not just in the NI area. A few years back before my daughter started school my husband put in for voluntary redundancy whn the firm was downsizing so he could get a lump sum and we could go off and buy somewhere further North before she started school and we was tied to the area. He did not get it so we stayed here. Now the prices of these houses we was looking at have also doubled as people living in the south migrate further north to get cheaper housing as they cannot afford to live in the south anymore.

However, yes, wages are more in London than they are anywhere else. I used to work in London before I had the children, the money was better but when you consider what you have to pay out then it really makes no difference. I did it for the experience, I would not do it again, I used to have to pay to drive my car to the station (no early Public Transport here to get us to and from work, then it means getting 3 buses and a 20 minute car journey becomes a 2 hour bus trip at a cost of around £10 a DAY - just what you need on top of commuting) anyhow, there is the car parking at the station (£50 a month), train fares (I believe now that it is around £350 a month if you buy a season ticket) bus/tube fares the other end (which are now £4 each way per day if you do not buy an oyster card), then the cost of food if you do not take your own lunch. If I had wanted to drive to work I would be looking now at around £30 a day parking charges (you are lucky if you can geta private firm to let you pay to park on their land) and £8 a day congestion charges. The list is endless, if I could move from here then I would but there is nowhere left to go that we could nt afford that my husbad could get work unless it was at minimum wage and then we could not afford a mortgage anyway on the MW (here we go again!!). The reason for the house increases is because people are moving further and further to find the cheaper housing to get out of the escalating debts, etc.. and this pushes the house prices up - and it is the Estate Agents who have control of the house prices remember. the more they sell for the more commission they earn. It is these guys that have control of this entire game and I think it is time they were govened to stop them doing this. The ladder has to stop somewhere. We have a lot of MA now asking for parents assests to be added into their kids earnings, etc.. so after paying for yourself you have to pay for your kids and what happens if you have more than one child? Do you share the assets out or add them all in so you are them liable if your child cannot afford their repayments?

What I am trying to say I guess is that although the problem seems to be in just your area it isn't. Sure they pay a bit more money here nearer London but our average house price is now £280k for a 3 bedroom house with a minute garden - in London I guess you would be looking at around £500k, not that you would find anything with a garden anyhow. Too many thugs are on te streets because the parents aren't in to see what the kids are doing as they have to work to pay for their huge mortgages. I am in a group of 5 mums with kids of the same age. All other 4 mums are going back to work full time when the kids go to school as they need the money, the kids will be looked after by other people so they'll see their mums and dads forbreakfast, bedtime and then weekends, I guess when they are old enough they'll see themselves in. You only have to see the huge rise in after school and breakfast clubs to see how easy it is to palm your kids off on other people as we can't afford not to work and raise them ourselves. Why have them if you can't look after them? Beats me. But if I could move from this countryside then I would as it is nothing like it used to be. My council tax is now around £1200 a year, £150 a month on electric, rent, life insurance, cat insurance and Sky TV (I can't afford a Social Life so that is my luxury) plus the clubs my daughter will soon start going to (Brownies and a Dancing Class) - just one or two as I cannot afford more, but there is little money for anything else now. However, as it is I would not go back to work for minimum wage either - someone else can do that and isn't that where we started from??

I am sorry this was long winded but I hope I explained everything I needed to.

PS. I don't think it is about being workshy, you get more if you are on benefit so people take that option as they can't afford to go back to work and lose money each week. It really is never ending, can anyone see the end to the problems?? And racism is everywhere, not just in NI - just my opinion - that being said, I am not sure it is racism as that is a very strong word to use, just hatred over the situation the country is in and having no control over it. We choose to take this hatred (being with words or anger - I am not conding that at all either so please do not think I am) out on the people we see 'causing' the problems. If these people are the polish workers taking our jobs then I do not see that as being rascist, just as having a strong opinion against those groups of workers. In MHO. I hope I worded that in the way I was trying to.

Thriftylady

IvanOpinion wrote:

If your skills do not attract the wage you want then you have no choice but to re-train into something that will.

Ivan

I agree with a lot of what you say, and this is certainly true in theory, but in reality re-training costs money, and when you're struggling just to pay for your basic costs of living, where does it come from?

My OH and I are both graudates, both in our thirties, both hardworking and capable, but neither of us have ever even reached the magic 20k mark when it comes to salary (and he works in IT and has qualifications coming out of his ears. Sadly, so does everyone else!! .......) When we married, we both thought that we would work for a few years and gather up some savings to allow me to go back to university, as my degree alone was nowhere near enough to get a foot on the career ladder. But as the cost of everything has gone up and up we're running just to stand still and its out of the question.

I haven't posted this looking for sympathy - there are many out there who are a lot worse off and I'm thankful for what we have. But its just too simplistic to say if you want to earn more money, work harder/re-train, because in reality it doesn't work like that.

IvanOpinion

Thriftylady wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you say, and this is certainly true in theory, but in reality re-training costs money, and when you're struggling just to pay for your basic costs of living, where does it come from?

it is a hard decision but sometimes you have to spend a little money to make a little money.

My OH and I are both graudates, both in our thirties, both hardworking and capable, but neither of us have ever even reached the magic 20k mark when it comes to salary (and he works in IT and has qualifications coming out of his ears. Sadly, so does everyone else!! .......)

This seems strange since I also work in IT and I know several companies in NI recruiting at wages quite a bit above the 20K mark. The problem with IT qualifications is that anybody can get them simply by reading a few books and sitting a few exams .. I did a web search a couple of years back and found a couple of sites that listed the questions and answers for many IT qualifications. I would like to think things have moved on but am not convinced that is the case. Raw experience with the products is more important than all the exams and is what I look for when interviewing.

But its just too simplistic to say if you want to earn more money, work harder/re-train, because in reality it doesn't work like that.

I can see where you are coming from but what are the alternatives ... as the old expression says 'standing still is moving backwards'

Ivan

Thriftylady

IvanOpinion wrote:

This seems strange since I also work in IT and I know several companies in NI recruiting at wages quite a bit above the 20K mark.

To clarify, I'm not saying that there are no IT jobs which pay above the 20k mark, more that there are also plenty which pay below it and when there are dozens, if not hundreds of other applicants who are similarly qualified......My husband is good at his job (thats not just me being biased! like most people, he has a formal appraisal system in his job, and I've seen his bosses comments, and they are mostly very positive) but the reality of job hunting is that you can be the most capable person in the world but if you can't blow your own trumpet at an interview, you're finished.

Thriftylady

IvanOpinion wrote:

it is a hard decision but sometimes you have to spend a little money to make a little money.

Ivan, you're confusing me now! I'm sure I've seen you post before saying that people need to learn to live within their means (admittedly within the context of bank charges etc) but now you're encouraging me to spend money that I don't have.

dj9928

blue_monkey wrote:

Hi, I wondered if I could add my little bit of input from the UK....

Well, we live around 30 driving miles from the centre of London and this might surprise you but within 18 miles you are in the countryside. We have the exact same problems here in the UK as you are all describing for NI so it was quite interesting reading. My husband is on what I would consider a good wage but to be able to afford our own place in this area, where I have lived most of my life, we would need a mortgage of more than 15 times his annual salary, buying is a complete no, no for the likes of average Joe in this area now - my sister and her bf are in the same boat and despite having been together for 7 years live apart as both are in low paid jobs. My husband and I were discussing this a few nights back. Houses are being built with no gardens (and we complain about the kids getting too fat when they can't even play footie in their gardens) and as an exaple, the latest ones, on a main road in the next village are costing £750k, some being built at the top of our estate are in the 600k mark, some 'luxury apartments' just went up for 350k for a 2 bed flat (oh, let's no forget the internal wall you can pull out to make 3 bedrooms though, whoopee). It seems to me that they are clearly trying to make this area a place to live only if you have huge amounts of money to spend, thus getting rid of the working class generations. There are guys in 'The City' who earn more in bonuses than we could ever dream aout winning on the lottery, and these are the people who choose to come live here.

However, we also have the same problems with the migrants coming in to do work for money that we just cannot afford to work for - especially for the supermarket chains from distribution sizes to the stores themselves. People with a family these days cannot live on minimum wage which would bring in around £160 a week I guess - however, yes, I guess someone from abroad paying £70 a week all in to rent a room in a house (with someone who is struggling to meet their own repayments on their property with the rising interest rates - we have a lot of this now) will then have enough money to 'live' and then be able to send money 'home'. Bearing in mind of course, that £50 a week is probably a lot of money in the EE countries they come from and would mean they could quiet happily keep their families on this.

That being said, if I was an employer and paying employees the minimum wage was an option of course I would do it - which business person would not. If people from this area did not want the work for that money and other did then I would employ those that did. It would mean I could keep my costs down and then offer competetive prices. It is a huge vicious circle. In this day and age we cannot afford to pay high prices, this is why we trundle off to the supermarket rather than do all our shopping on the high street, my food bill would treble what I pay now if I bought it locally, I cannot afford that so I go to Tesco, but then Tesco are employing the migrants who will work for minimum pay so they can keep their costs down - so where does it all end?

I think the situations you are describing are now nationwide throughout Great Britain, not just in the NI area. A few years back before my daughter started school my husband put in for voluntary redundancy whn the firm was downsizing so he could get a lump sum and we could go off and buy somewhere further North before she started school and we was tied to the area. He did not get it so we stayed here. Now the prices of these houses we was looking at have also doubled as people living in the south migrate further north to get cheaper housing as they cannot afford to live in the south anymore.

However, yes, wages are more in London than they are anywhere else. I used to work in London before I had the children, the money was better but when you consider what you have to pay out then it really makes no difference. I did it for the experience, I would not do it again, I used to have to pay to drive my car to the station (no early Public Transport here to get us to and from work, then it means getting 3 buses and a 20 minute car journey becomes a 2 hour bus trip at a cost of around £10 a DAY - just what you need on top of commuting) anyhow, there is the car parking at the station (£50 a month), train fares (I believe now that it is around £350 a month if you buy a season ticket) bus/tube fares the other end (which are now £4 each way per day if you do not buy an oyster card), then the cost of food if you do not take your own lunch. If I had wanted to drive to work I would be looking now at around £30 a day parking charges (you are lucky if you can geta private firm to let you pay to park on their land) and £8 a day congestion charges. The list is endless, if I could move from here then I would but there is nowhere left to go that we could nt afford that my husbad could get work unless it was at minimum wage and then we could not afford a mortgage anyway on the MW (here we go again!!). The reason for the house increases is because people are moving further and further to find the cheaper housing to get out of the escalating debts, etc.. and this pushes the house prices up - and it is the Estate Agents who have control of the house prices remember. the more they sell for the more commission they earn. It is these guys that have control of this entire game and I think it is time they were govened to stop them doing this. The ladder has to stop somewhere. We have a lot of MA now asking for parents assests to be added into their kids earnings, etc.. so after paying for yourself you have to pay for your kids and what happens if you have more than one child? Do you share the assets out or add them all in so you are them liable if your child cannot afford their repayments?

What I am trying to say I guess is that although the problem seems to be in just your area it isn't. Sure they pay a bit more money here nearer London but our average house price is now £280k for a 3 bedroom house with a minute garden - in London I guess you would be looking at around £500k, not that you would find anything with a garden anyhow. Too many thugs are on te streets because the parents aren't in to see what the kids are doing as they have to work to pay for their huge mortgages. I am in a group of 5 mums with kids of the same age. All other 4 mums are going back to work full time when the kids go to school as they need the money, the kids will be looked after by other people so they'll see their mums and dads forbreakfast, bedtime and then weekends, I guess when they are old enough they'll see themselves in. You only have to see the huge rise in after school and breakfast clubs to see how easy it is to palm your kids off on other people as we can't afford not to work and raise them ourselves. Why have them if you can't look after them? Beats me. But if I could move from this countryside then I would as it is nothing like it used to be. My council tax is now around £1200 a year, £150 a month on electric, rent, life insurance, cat insurance and Sky TV (I can't afford a Social Life so that is my luxury) plus the clubs my daughter will soon start going to (Brownies and a Dancing Class) - just one or two as I cannot afford more, but there is little money for anything else now. However, as it is I would not go back to work for minimum wage either - someone else can do that and isn't that where we started from??

I am sorry this was long winded but I hope I explained everything I needed to.

PS. I don't think it is about being workshy, you get more if you are on benefit so people take that option as they can't afford to go back to work and lose money each week. It really is never ending, can anyone see the end to the problems?? And racism is everywhere, not just in NI - just my opinion - that being said, I am not sure it is racism as that is a very strong word to use, just hatred over the situation the country is in and having no control over it. We choose to take this hatred (being with words or anger - I am not conding that at all either so please do not think I am) out on the people we see 'causing' the problems. If these people are the polish workers taking our jobs then I do not see that as being rascist, just as having a strong opinion against those groups of workers. In MHO. I hope I worded that in the way I was trying to.

That has summed everything up 100%, I agree with it all especially the last paragraph, Its not about being workshy, some people are better of on benefits etc, If you have a family to bring up you do whatevers best for them, if you earn more on the dole so be it.

Also the racism part is so true, its not racism it it hatred over the situation we are in and theres nothing we can do about it.

I myself don't have a clue how to get out of this mess the labour government has left us and thats who's at fault here,

IvanOpinion

Thriftylady wrote:

but the reality of job hunting is that you can be the most capable person in the world but if you can't blow your own trumpet at an interview, you're finished.

:rotfl: You are talking to the worlds worst interviewee here

ivan

tomstickland

The problem with IT qualifications is that anybody can get them simply by reading a few books and sitting a few exams

We've recently discovered this at work. Someone being trained in a particular language and so on doesn't mean that they're capable of producing good work.
I do a lot of practical programming. ie: start something on Monday morning and have something working by lunchtime and I'll spend a day or two refinining it. Many software people would rather spend Monday writing a vision document, Tuesday reviewing the stake holders, Wednesday talking about core architecture, Thursday doing class diagrams, anything to avoid getting on with it it seems. I digress....