Advice on restructure

picasso2

Hi I wonder if anybody can point me in the right direction with this.

I am a front line clinician working in the community in the NHS. Our department has announced a restructure a couple of days ago (lovely early christmas present). It goes along the lines of saying that it is to improve the services and make them more efficient and I believe some of the restructure will. However it appears to be reducing the number of senior clinicians - I am not clear how this fits in with the Trusts vision for quality as these are the most experienced front line staff.

I am one of these senior clinicians and it appears that there will be 6 posts and there are 10 staff in post at present. There are also 3 lead staff who were given 'management' roles a year or so ago in a re - organisation that we have been told are likely to be applying for these posts also.

There is no information on what the job description for the new post will be - what looks clear is that the posts we are in now will not exist and the new posts will be quite different.

The document is very difficult to read with no explanation of the terminology used. It appears that those clinicians who do not get recruited into the senior posts will be put up for redeployment into other areas and it could be very very different to what we are doing now , at the furthest point away across the city, with a change of hours and a minimum of 6,000 a year pay cut (although there will be some pay protection).
There have been no managers available who are able to give us any further information, but they did send a christmas card and a tin of roses between 45 staff.

I have had a quick look on the Acas website but cannot see anything about restructure there , the union website is also not helpful.

Ironically our top heavy senior management is unchanged in the restructure.

We have used the anonymous contact system to contact the Chief executive and raise our concerns about the timing of this emailed document given that we are all working in a service that operates 365 days a year and this is the most challenging time of the year for us.

I wonder if anybody can explain to me why this will be redeployment and not redundancy as our posts will not exist in April 2012.

I also was not sure if this should be on the redundancy board but it looks like most of the threads on there are around confirmed redundancy.

Many Thanks

Jarndyce

picasso2 wrote: »

Hi I wonder if anybody can point me in the right direction with this.

I am a front line clinician working in the community in the NHS. Our department has announced a restructure a couple of days ago (lovely early christmas present). It goes along the lines of saying that it is to improve the services and make them more efficient and I believe some of the restructure will. However it appears to be reducing the number of senior clinicians - I am not clear how this fits in with the Trusts vision for quality as these are the most experienced front line staff.

I am one of these senior clinicians and it appears that there will be 6 posts and there are 10 staff in post at present. There are also 3 lead staff who were given 'management' roles a year or so ago in a re - organisation that we have been told are likely to be applying for these posts also.

There is no information on what the job description for the new post will be - what looks clear is that the posts we are in now will not exist and the new posts will be quite different.

The document is very difficult to read with no explanation of the terminology used. It appears that those clinicians who do not get recruited into the senior posts will be put up for redeployment into other areas and it could be very very different to what we are doing now , at the furthest point away across the city, with a change of hours and a minimum of 6,000 a year pay cut (although there will be some pay protection).
There have been no managers available who are able to give us any further information, but they did send a christmas card and a tin of roses between 45 staff.

I have had a quick look on the Acas website but cannot see anything about restructure there , the union website is also not helpful.

Ironically our top heavy senior management is unchanged in the restructure.

We have used the anonymous contact system to contact the Chief executive and raise our concerns about the timing of this emailed document given that we are all working in a service that operates 365 days a year and this is the most challenging time of the year for us.

I wonder if anybody can explain to me why this will be redeployment and not redundancy as our posts will not exist in April 2012.

I also was not sure if this should be on the redundancy board but it looks like most of the threads on there are around confirmed redundancy.

Many Thanks

It would be redundancy if there were people left without jobs when the music stops. But now it is just a reorganisation. However much you think it is wrong, employers are allowed to make bad decisions, and perhaps from where they are looking it doesn't seem as wrong.

anamenottaken

picasso2 wrote: »

Hi I wonder if anybody can point me in the right direction with this.

I am a front line clinician working in the community in the NHS. Our department has announced a restructure a couple of days ago (lovely early christmas present). It goes along the lines of saying that it is to improve the services and make them more efficient and I believe some of the restructure will. However it appears to be reducing the number of senior clinicians - I am not clear how this fits in with the Trusts vision for quality as these are the most experienced front line staff.

I am one of these senior clinicians and it appears that there will be 6 posts and there are 10 staff in post at present. There are also 3 lead staff who were given 'management' roles a year or so ago in a re - organisation that we have been told are likely to be applying for these posts also.

There is no information on what the job description for the new post will be - what looks clear is that the posts we are in now will not exist and the new posts will be quite different.

The document is very difficult to read with no explanation of the terminology used. It appears that those clinicians who do not get recruited into the senior posts will be put up for redeployment into other areas and it could be very very different to what we are doing now , at the furthest point away across the city, with a change of hours and a minimum of 6,000 a year pay cut (although there will be some pay protection).
There have been no managers available who are able to give us any further information, but they did send a christmas card and a tin of roses between 45 staff.

I have had a quick look on the Acas website but cannot see anything about restructure there , the union website is also not helpful.

Ironically our top heavy senior management is unchanged in the restructure.

We have used the anonymous contact system to contact the Chief executive and raise our concerns about the timing of this emailed document given that we are all working in a service that operates 365 days a year and this is the most challenging time of the year for us.

I wonder if anybody can explain to me why this will be redeployment and not redundancy as our posts will not exist in April 2012.

I also was not sure if this should be on the redundancy board but it looks like most of the threads on there are around confirmed redundancy.

Many Thanks

Redeployment is one way of avoiding dismissing staff who would otherwise be redundant. An employer is meant to do their best to avoid redundancy by finding alternative work for their people.

Call me cynical but there are probably no detailed job descriptions yet because they haven't really thought about what actually needs to be done and haven't found out from their staff exactly what is done now as very often jobs continue to develop after a job description is set and they aren't always revised at the time of annual appraisals.

SarEl

picasso2 wrote: »

at the furthest point away across the city, with a change of hours and a minimum of 6,000 a year pay cut (although there will be some pay protection).....



I wonder if anybody can explain to me why this will be redeployment and not redundancy as our posts will not exist in April 2012.

The first bit here is the answer to your question. As Jarndyce has said, rather seasonally put, you are not redundant until the music stops and you are left without a chair. Albeit that the chair may be somewhere else, at a different time, and lower paid.

Your employer is legally bound to attempt to find you a suitable alternative position. In so doing there are some grounds upon which you can challenge that position as being a suitable alternative. So you are questioning those grounds:

"Right across the city" - Almost certainly isn't going to work, whether or not you have a mobility clause in your contract. It would need to be 50 miles or some 90 minutes travel time each way to be able to consider refusing a suitable alternative on these grounds.

"Paid £6k less" - but you have payment protection you have said - even a minimal amount of payment protection blows these grounds out of the water. You cannot therefore refuse the job as a suitable alternative on pay grounds.

"Different working hours" - may cut some ice, but it is only a may, and only if you can demonstrate that it would be impossible for you to work the offered hours.

That is the answer to why this is a redeployment and not a redundancy. People are not made redundant, posts are. People are dismissed by reason of redundancy, and that only happens if the employer cannot find a suitable alternative position, not if the post is redundant.

picasso2

Thank you all , like I said I wasn't clear and wanted advice before I blew my fuse which would not be helpful and we won't learn anymore until mid January.

The thing I am mostly concerned about is that I have spent 15 years working with eldery people and this is where I am highly skilled , I do have a general nursing diploma and a management degree (I've got experience working in a managers post previously) and a few other specific qualifications such as acute assessment and prescibing.

What if they were to move me to a post relating to children or the prison service ? Both scare the pants off me but the kids more than offenders :eek:

picasso2

"Right across the city" - Almost certainly isn't going to work, whether or not you have a mobility clause in your contract. It would need to be 50 miles or some 90 minutes travel time each way to be able to consider refusing a suitable alternative on these grounds.
Yes , it can take 90 minutes plus from where I live due to the weight of traffic . However if it was to be a post I could confidently do I would look at relocation . The mobility clauses were taken out of contracts just before I took the post.

"Paid £6k less" - but you have payment protection you have said - even a minimal amount of payment protection blows these grounds out of the water. You cannot therefore refuse the job as a suitable alternative on pay grounds.

"Different working hours" - may cut some ice, but it is only a may, and only if you can demonstrate that it would be impossible for you to work the offered hours. I currently have an informal arrangement to work my hours over four days so I can attend therapy weekly . I am aware it could be more formal via Occy health but I don't want to look like I am a problem - I am probably better equipped psychologically than most people thanks to this. Once this treatment is complete I will be able to work entirely flexibly.

That is the answer to why this is a redeployment and not a redundancy. People are not made redundant, posts are. People are dismissed by reason of redundancy, and that only happens if the employer cannot find a suitable alternative position, not if the post is redundant.

Many thanks

Off to pub for some xmas cheer

SarEl

picasso2 wrote: »

Thank you all , like I said I wasn't clear and wanted advice before I blew my fuse which would not be helpful and we won't learn anymore until mid January.

The thing I am mostly concerned about is that I have spent 15 years working with eldery people and this is where I am highly skilled , I do have a general nursing diploma and a management degree (I've got experience working in a managers post previously) and a few other specific qualifications such as acute assessment and prescibing.

What if they were to move me to a post relating to children or the prison service ? Both scare the pants off me but the kids more than offenders :eek:

If your skills are transferable, which you seem to indicate that they are, then you won't be redundant. But you are getting ahead of yourself - I would suggest dealing with that when and if it comes to it, because it may not. Deal with it one stage at a time - you aren't even in redeployment yet!

SarEl

picasso2 wrote: »

The mobility clauses were taken out of contracts just before I took the post.

Mobility clauses only apply when the relocation isn't considered local - this one would be. I have a fairly good idea where you work - because I am fairly certain from what you have said and your county which Trust you are in! And if I am correct, then I wouldn't rely on the distance of a relocation cutting any ice with a tribunal - which is the test that you would have to pass if the NHS refused redundancy.

If and when it comes to it you would be better haggling with the employer - you may get more leeway there than you would with a tribunal.

picasso2

SarEl wrote: »

because I am fairly certain from what you have said and your county which Trust you are in!

How paranoid am I now

picasso2

SarEl wrote: »

But you are getting ahead of yourself

I tend to do that , I call it being prepared

I like my job and am prepared to move as I realise there is a potential for it to be a positive move - But it would be a kick in the teeth to be downgraded given that I do work very hard.

Right the pub lunch is booked for one and I need to get ready. I really do appreciate your advice , shame our managers were not able to answer these questions.

Mery Xmas:beer:

SarEl

picasso2 wrote: »

How paranoid am I now

Only because I also live not that far from you and there's a dirth of cities that take 90 minutes to cross - and I know some of your colleagues. You aren't the only people being restructured! Or the first!