Need advice on tenancy termination please

Baker89

I've been renting a house through an agency with my fiance from 10th February 2011 and on the tenancy agreement it says,

From and Including the tenth day of February two thousand and eleven

To and Including the ninth day of February two thousand and twelve

Anyway ever since we moved in it's been a royal pain in the rear trying to get the landlord to do repairs, some have taken over 2 months to get sorted out.. Which has resulted in email after email being sent to the agency to attempt to get the repairs done. The problem being the agency doesn't have full management of this property, quite the opposite in fact! The landlord has ALL communication go through them but ALL decisions have to be made by him i.e. repairs and if he'll allow them to be done!

So as you can imagine relations have been rather strained between us and the landlord, the only thing being we have NEVER met the landlord, he insists ALL communication be done through the agency.

Now yesterday we received a letter dated 12th of December 2011 saying,

"We write on behalf of your landlord to give you notice to terminate your tenancy at the above property in accordance with the housing act 1988 - Section 21. Your tenancy will therefore terminate on the 14th of February 2012 when, subject to vacant possession, your rental liability liability will cease. Please note that under the terms of yoru tenancy agreement, it is not permissible to offset the rent against the deposit."

Now when we took this tenancy on we were informed the landlord wanted long term tenants due to him having 'bad' tenants in the past. Clearly that's not the case, as it seems at the end of a fixed term he just wants new tenants all the time.

What I'd like to know is if we didn't/couldn't leave due to having nowhere else to live at the end of the fixed term what could he do about it in the long run what with us already having been served a Section 21 notice to quit.

Also the dates don't seem to add up but I don't suppose that matters?

The deposit is protected by My deposits presumably until the end date on the tenancy agreement which is the 10th of February 2012 I presume?

After that date I'd assume because it's no longer protected the agency could simply refuse to release it to us? They have no reason to do so but I suspect the landlord will no doubt try to claim for every little thing he can! That's been my experience in the past anyway.

So the tenancy ends on the 10th February 2012?

The deposit presumably is only protected until that date as well?

But they've given notice to quit by the 14th of February 2012, so as I say the dates don't add up.

Any advice please?

Also we would be willing to sign up for a further fixed term of 6 months in order to save up the money to be able to move out, but we haven't got it right now as we didn't expect the section 21 notice to quit.. So how could we/would you approach the agency about this? As it seems to be pretty clear the landlord wants us out, although he has no good reason to warrant wanting us out (not that I suppose he needs one) but I can only assume it's because we have followed the rules of the tenancy agreement to the letter and he simply didn't expect us to follow them when it comes to repairs etc.

We also have 2 young children aged 4 and 2 so obviuosly if we had nowhere to we would face exceptional hardship.

I'm considering emailing the agency but wouldn't really know what to put.

jjlandlord

A s.21 notice is not a notice to quit, as such your tenancy will not end on the 14th February. The expiry of the notice entitles the landlord to seek a possession order in court.

As for the expiry date: I understand that your tenancy is still a fixed term tenancy, so the expiry date of the notice may be any date as long as it gives you 2 month notice and expires on or after the expiry of the fixed term.

Regarding the notice itself:
It does not state under which paragraph of section 21 it is made.
It does not state that the landlord requires possession.

Others could comment whether this impact the notice validity, as I have my doubts.

Baker89

Oh ok,

I thought the section 21 was the paragraph? I didn't know there were different ones.

So after the expiry of the fixed term, which I can only assume is the 9th of February next year as per what the tenancy agreement says we would cease to be liable to pay the rent? Unless a new agreement was drawn up in the meantime? I mean the rent is due on the 8th of each month by standing order (actual rent date is the 10th of each month) but if they've given notice to quit by February the 14th then we would still be liable to pay 4 days rent would we not?

Also even if we get nowhere with the agency or landlord, if we stayed after the 14th (or 10th) and didn't have alternative accommodation, we wouldn't have a problem paying the rent whilst we were still in the property. We wouldn't just expect to get away with not paying it even if we weren't obliged to as where not like that.

And no it doesn't say the landlord requires possession anywhere in the letter.

Also could you clarify your last sentence please? You mean the letter of notice sent by the letting agency may not be valid?

If I were to email the agency regarding a possible 6 month extension to the contract, how would you go about wording it so as not to aggrevate them/or the landlord.

jjlandlord

Baker89 wrote: »

So after the expiry of the fixed term, which I can only assume is the 9th of February next year as per what the tenancy agreement says we would cease to be liable to pay the rent? Unless a new agreement was drawn up in the meantime? I mean the rent is due on the 8th of each month by standing order (actual rent date is the 10th of each month) but if they've given notice to quit by February the 14th then we would still be liable to pay 4 days rent would we not?

If you do not vacate at the end of the fixed term a so-called "statutory periodic tenancy" will automatically be created. Nothing will change and you'll have to continue paying the rent.

You cannot serve a valid notice to quit expiring on the 14th Feb. as it must expire on the last day of a tenancy period, which will run from the 10th of a month to the 9th of the following month.

Baker89 wrote: »

Also could you clarify your last sentence please? You mean the letter of notice sent by the letting agency may not be valid?

I'm just wondering if the points I raised have any impact on the notice's validity.

Baker89 wrote: »

If I were to email the agency regarding a possible 6 month extension to the contract, how would you go about wording it so as not to aggrevate them/or the landlord.

If you want to discuss the possibility of a new fixed term, just approach them politely, there's no cause for aggravation there.
But bear in mind that they might have served you with a s.21 notice not because they intend to evict you but because they want to persuade you to sign up for a new fixed term (for which the agent will most probably charge you).

Baker89

Ok thanks. Hopefully someone else will come along to clarify my position.

Also I read in another thread on here, this one forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3635697 that,

On the section 21 what were the grounds listed for serving the notice?

On our section 21 notice/letter from the agency (which is what it is) presumably that is what a section 21 is? It doesn't give any reason why they are issuing a section 21 notice except that the tenancy agreement is up, i'm probably being stupid as that's no doubt the reason? A valid reason I assume? Sorry I'm knew to all this section 21 business.

The landlord has to list the reasons and if they've not done it then notice is invalid.

The landlord (well agency) hasn't listed any reasons other than it will be the end of the tenancy agreement.

jjlandlord wrote: »

You cannot serve a valid notice to quit expiring on the 14th Feb. as it must expire on the last day of a tenancy period, which will run from the 10th of a month to the 9th of the following month.

So the fact they've issued the notice to expire on the 14th of Feb is wrong? It should say the 9th of Feb or the 10th? If it's wrong do they need to re-issue the notice, and if so it's too late for them to give 2 months notice expiring at the end of a rental period isn't it?

So if they did re-issue it then they'd have to do it from the 10th of January 2012 to expire on the 9th of March 2012 wouldn't they? Even though the 9th of March 2012 is 1 month after our original 12 month tenancy expires.

And after the 9th of Feb 2012 is the deposit no longer registered? As the certificate says,

Tenancy start date: 10th Feb 2011

Earliest contractual end date: 9th Feb 2012

G_M

1) your (current Fixed Term) tenancy ends on the date on the Agreement - 9th Feb
2) you can leave on or before that date without giving any notice (but if you leave before you'll still have to pay rent till the 9th)
3) if you stay till the 11th Feb or beyond, you will automatically create a Statutory Periodic Tenancy - which runs month by month at the same rent as before. If you then wish to leave you must give a full months notice ending on the 9th of a month. If the LL wishes you to leave he must give youTWO months notice
4) If valid (see below) the Notice you've received is a Notice only - it does not require you to leave on the 14th (or 9th). Only a court order can MAKE you leave. However, if you stay you still owe rent and need to read 1) & 2) above
5) The Notice you have received is, I believe not valid - by allowing you to stay from 10th - 14th Feb a Periodic Tenancy is created, which requires the LL to then give you a further 2 months notice
6) it is quite likely this letter does not mean the LL wants you to leave. Often LLs send S21 Notices as a precaution, since it gives them the option to apply to a court for possession if they later wish. Without the Notice, they cannot go to court so have a further 2 month delay. Some LLs even send these Notices in the 1st week of a tenancy!

I therefore suggest a conversation with the LL /agent to find out if they genuinely want to end the tenancy or are happy for you to stay on a periodic tenancy.

BitterAndTwisted

As jjlandlord has told you, a periodic tenancy automatically arises on the 10th of February. If the landlord and their agent truly want to you to vacate the property they will have to apply to the court to have the S21 enforced. Given the dates you have quoted I have serious doubts that the S21 has been correctly served. If this is the case they will fail in court and will have to issue a new S21. Meanwhile you continue to to pay the rent in full and on time. Just because your fixed-term AST has expired does not mean that your deposit will no longer be protected. It should be protected for the entire duration of the tenancy, not just the fixed-term part of it.

JJL is probably right and the arrival of this S21 is a prelude to them offering you a further fixed-term, most likely at an increased rent. If you don't request a new fixed-term and you don't sign one, you could still be in the property by some time in April at the very least, depending on the validity of this S21 and how busy the courts are.

Never forget that the agent's interests and the landlord's don't always coincide: getting shot of a tenant and finding a new one gives the agent an opportunity to charge more fees than leaving a current tenant in situ. Plus, the landlord could suffer a void-period between tenancies and all the agent would suffer then is their 10% fees on the rent-collection but they could easily make those back from the tenant referencing and holding-deposit etcetera.

jjlandlord

G_M wrote: »

5) The Notice you have received is, I believe not valid - by allowing you to stay from 10th - 14th Feb a Periodic Tenancy is created, which requires the LL to then give you a further 2 months notice

A notice served during the fixed term must be under section 21(1): Such notice can expire on any day on or after the fixed term expiry providing that at least 2 month notice was given.
So that here the date is fine, though odd.

Regarding this other thread: Advice there is wrong in the sense that a s.21 notice does not require any ground (it is also known as a "no-fault notice").

Baker89

But after the 9th of Feb (even if only 1 day after the original tenancy expires) I automatically go onto a periodic tenancy, will they have to re-issue the section 21, or not?

I ask because after the 9th of Feb the fixed term will be over. And a new periodic tenancy will have arisen. So the notice given during the fixed term will have been for the fixed term no? If so that's why I'm asking if they'd have to issue a new one for the periodic tenancy that would ensue.

jjlandlord

Baker89 wrote: »

But after the 9th of Feb (even if only 1 day after the original tenancy expires) I automatically go onto a periodic tenancy, will they have to re-issue the section 21, or not?

I ask because after the 9th of Feb the fixed term will be over. And a new periodic tenancy will have arisen. So the notice given during the fixed term will have been for the fixed term no? If so that's why I'm asking if they'd have to issue a new one for the periodic tenancy that would ensue.

No, as per my previous post.
The landlord cannot seek possession during the fixed term anyway, unless you voluntarily agree to it.

Baker89

Okay. Thanks for your responses so far.

So the section 21 issued to us via the agency is only seeking possession after the 14th of February.

What's confusing me (if the agency/landlord declines to issue us with a further 6 month fixed term agreement) is that we are only bound by the fixed term until the 9th of February 2012 so we would pay rent on the 10th of January (standing order goes out on the 8th) that would take us up to the 9th of February. But if we stayed a further 4-5 days as per them wanting possession after the 14th of February, we'd have to pay the rent on the 10th of February which would mean we'd paid another month but for only 4-5 days of living there so they'd then owe us money.

That's only if they decline to issue a further tenancy and if we left of course. Which if we had nowhere to go we couldn't leave with a 2 and a 4 year old anyway.

Which brings me to my next question, how long would it take for them to get a court to evict us should it go down that route? Considering they've already issued us with a section 21 notice. And bearing i mind young children could potentially be made homeless.

Also any house I've rented in the past I've never received a section 21 notice, it's always been a letter asking if I want to extend the tenancy as previous landlords have all previously said they'd be willing to do so.