Time wasters

badaz52

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone can shed any light on this. I am recently looking for a promotion in another company. I won't go into too much detail but basically in my industry(education) the job I do is usually 3 tier; Junior, Senior, Manager.

I have held a Senior position in two previous employers and have the qualifications and experience to move up as Manager.

In the last 18 months I have had around 6 interviews for the Manager role.

In 5 of those interviews they have given it to an internal candidate so effectively wasted my time and anyone else who went for the position that was not an internal. It should be noted that in all of these cases the internal candidate was the only interviewee currently with that organisation.

What I would like to know is, although I know this isn't illegal what is the point? why advertise externally if you know your going to be biased when it comes to your internal candidate? why not match them to the position and if they are not a good fit then advertise externally?

I cannot see the point of wasting people's time and getting their hopes up when the job might potentially be earmarked for someone else.

This is why so many people are out of work here in the UK, it's all about who you know and not what you know and it needs to change. There are far too many people who are qualified and experience to do a job and are being held back by others in positions who are less qualified/experienced but just got lucky.

In theory I find myself trapped in the job I am in as the only way I can get a promotion is to stay here and wait for my boss to leave which could potentially be another 10 years? I can't go elsewhere looking to get ahead (even though I am qualified and experienced for the role) because they are constantly biased towards internal candidates.

The education sector is a close knit community in the positions I am going for so opportunities are few and far between. I get offered interviews every time for the position I want and when I ask for feedback I never get a straight answer.

I have just applied for another position and when I telephoned and asked for more information about the current team environment, they were very coy which makes me suspicious again that when I am selected for interview (which I know I will be) I won't be given a fair interview because it's going to an internal.

**Juice**

This can sometimes be quite common and must admit if I was attending interview and found out there were internal candidates, my heart would sink a bit - but it's not always the case that the job has "been written for an internal candidate" and just because they already work there doesn't mean they're the best person for the job. I suppose it's all down to HR practices and seeming to give fair opportunities to all.

I must admit it's so annoying when this happens - filling in applications, preparing for interviews and attending interviews takes a lot of time and effort, only to be disappointed at the final hurdle. I would say keep going and keep trying though, you never know what might happen in future!

Sambucus_Nigra

badaz52 wrote: »

This is why so many people are out of work here in the UK, it's all about who you know and not what you know and it needs to change.

How could it ever change?

I know people who have had a preferred internal candidate, but external people have come along and wiped the floor with them and snaffled the job from under their noses.

The best alternative is to advertise internally and interview, and then only spend their money advertising externally if they don't find someone. However years of 'fair and effective recruitment' means people are too scared to do it.

WhiteHorse

badaz52 wrote: »

Why advertise externally if you know your going to be biased when it comes to your internal candidate?

They advertise in order to avoid allegations of discrimination.

This is why so many people are out of work here in the UK, it's all about who you know and not what you know and it needs to change.

Many organisations (including the civil service), operate a 'friends and family' recruitment policy. If that's not an open invitation to corruption, I don't know what is.

A friend of mine transferred into a Council department only to discover that he was the only person not related to other members of staff. He was forced out within weeks.

badaz52

If I get an interview for the one I have just applied for it will be my 7th. If that then goes to an internal candiate it will be 6th time it has happened.

It is very de-moralising as like you say you just have this sinking feeling before, during and after the interview which if you feel like that it's already scuppered your chances as it comes across in your facial expressiona and body languages.

I know you say they advertise to avoid allegations of discrimination but in the majority of cases they pick the internal so if that isn't discrimination I don't know what is. I can understand if there were 10 internal applicants but when there is just 1, which In my environment is usually the case just give it to them before advertising externally.

Even if they keep knowledge of the internal away from you up until interview day, your still all introduced at the same time and they usually stand out like a sore thumb.

I can't blame them for wanting to hire the internal because if they hire someone external, it's de-moralising to their current staff member who has to stay around and take orders from someone who beat them to the job, it isn't good foundation for building a strong team.

As far as I know there is no legal requirement to advertise a job externally or internally, so I cannot fathom why they don't just hire the internal (natural progression) unless they are totally not suitable then advertise externally.

WhiteHorse

badaz52 wrote: »

I know you say they advertise to avoid allegations of discrimination but in the majority of cases they pick the internal so if that isn't discrimination I don't know what is.

This is true, but it's next to impossible to prove. Whereas if they don't advertise at all, they leave themselves wide open.

heretolearn_2

On the other hand there was a long thread recently from someone who was an internal candidate, was told they had the job in the bag, and then it was given to an external candidate. She was really gutted! So just because an internal candidate is interviewed, it's not guaranteed at all.

OP - how do you know all these jobs went to an internal candidate. You aren't usually told who got the job if you didn't...

magenta22

Oh thank you, this has been my exact argument for so long and finally someone who agrees with me!

I have been to countless interviews where the role has gone to someone internally, it's so frustrating when you have taken the time to prepare for the interview, taken time off work to get to the interview - usually by making up some excuse as to why you need a couple of hours off only to get - sorry you gave a really good interview but...we had an internal candidate apply, and what makes it especially worse is that I sit a stones throw away from the internal candidate that got a job I applied for!

They always have an advantage that they know the company 'language/way' and any in-house systems, but we can learn them.

Then again, I am waiting to hear back about a couple of 'internal' roles and so far heard nothing - bearing in mind that my FTC comes to an end this week so they are cutting it a bit fine. Perhaps it's is because I am not techically an employee of theirs they are not rushing it through.

Anyway, you just have to think that although you want a promotion, at least you have a job - come the end of this week - I don't.

badaz52

heretolearn wrote: »

On the other hand there was a long thread recently from someone who was an internal candidate, was told they had the job in the bag, and then it was given to an external candidate. She was really gutted! So just because an internal candidate is interviewed, it's not guaranteed at all.

OP - how do you know all these jobs went to an internal candidate. You aren't usually told who got the job if you didn't...

I found out through various methods, all my interviews are based in education so sometimes school's post their staff lists on their website so you can see the names of those currently employed and find out after if their job title has changed. Sometimes it's a case of meeting them at some point, school's are very close knit.

One other method which is usually the closest indicator is when someone is appointed who was not with your group on the day so either they were interviewed at a different time or not interviewed at all, both would be unfair but it happens.

Like you say magenta22 the worst is the impact it has financially. My employer allows 1 day per year paid to attend interviews for other positions, which means for all the other interviews I either have to lie, or take the day without pay. I usually take it without pay as I prefer to be truthful but 1 day without pay equates to about £80 for me.

So in the last 18 months when I may not have had a fair interview becuase it could have been earmarked for an internal. I have not only had my time wasted, my confidence shot to pieces I have potentially also lost £400.

This is the problem and why the employment law needs to be looked at and from what I can find out it looks like at least 40% of jobs are already earmarked for other people before you get to the interview. This percentage is probably greater in local governments as there are more people. It isn't as simple as just using you to fill a gap and wasting a few hours of your time it's so much more.

At least give your rejected applicants compulsory feedback so they know they were even considered! most employers won't even provide feedback and when they do it's not honest and to the point.

IMO you should not expect to see any internal candidates when interviewing for a job. They should be checked first and if not suitable advertise externally, which would achieve three things:

1. Those interviewing know they are getting a fair interview with no other influences going on

2. The employer would save a fortune in advertising costs and staffing hours

3. It's perfectly legal and the most logical way

Your either interested in your internal or your not. If I was an internal candidate for a job and my employer said "we are going to advertise the role externally but we would like you to apply" I wouldn't apply and it certainly would not make me feel valued, if the school would rather be interested in an outsider over someone who knows the setup and who has already put in how every many months/years of effort into the establishment.

The current method is only fair for 1 person and that is the internal candidate, especially if like in most cases they get the job.

pelirocco

badaz52 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone can shed any light on this. I am recently looking for a promotion in another company. I won't go into too much detail but basically in my industry(education) the job I do is usually 3 tier; Junior, Senior, Manager.

I have held a Senior position in two previous employers and have the qualifications and experience to move up as Manager.

In the last 18 months I have had around 6 interviews for the Manager role.

In 5 of those interviews they have given it to an internal candidate so effectively wasted my time and anyone else who went for the position that was not an internal. It should be noted that in all of these cases the internal candidate was the only interviewee currently with that organisation.

What I would like to know is, although I know this isn't illegal what is the point? why advertise externally if you know your going to be biased when it comes to your internal candidate? why not match them to the position and if they are not a good fit then advertise externally?

I cannot see the point of wasting people's time and getting their hopes up when the job might potentially be earmarked for someone else.

This is why so many people are out of work here in the UK, it's all about who you know and not what you know and it needs to change. There are far too many people who are qualified and experience to do a job and are being held back by others in positions who are less qualified/experienced but just got lucky.

In theory I find myself trapped in the job I am in as the only way I can get a promotion is to stay here and wait for my boss to leave which could potentially be another 10 years? I can't go elsewhere looking to get ahead (even though I am qualified and experienced for the role) because they are constantly biased towards internal candidates.

The education sector is a close knit community in the positions I am going for so opportunities are few and far between. I get offered interviews every time for the position I want and when I ask for feedback I never get a straight answer.

I have just applied for another position and when I telephoned and asked for more information about the current team environment, they were very coy which makes me suspicious again that when I am selected for interview (which I know I will be) I won't be given a fair interview because it's going to an internal.

how would promoting people internally be to blame for high unemployment? ........the person who has been promoted previous job has now become vacant !!

Just maybe they employ the best person for the job?

getmore4less

Probably much more common where there are public funds.

There is a need to show that the best canidate was chosen so they need to advertise.

Places I have worked, only when there is no one suitable internaly did we look extrenaly and often by a do you know anyone that might be intested along with recruitment bonus to avoid agencis.