Tenants rights in terms of 'quiet enjoyment'

schnide

Hi all

Thank you as usual in advance for reading - this forum hasn't failed me yet and I never expect it to now! So no pressure

Short version - six of us rent two floors residentially above a two floor pub in London. The landlords occasionally use the kitchen to prepare food and we rarely make any objection to that. I can't think of an occasion where they haven't given us 24 hours notice.

From this Sunday, they want to start a band night on Sunday, 4pm-9pm to try and improve business. We expect from previous experience that this will be loud, potentially coming up through both floors of the residential property. We also think they'll be using the kitchen to prepare food again.

As I say, this potentially will be ongoing every Sunday. Could anyone tell me if it sounds like anything here infringes on any quiet enjoyment clause, or potentially anything else? Because this comes on top of quite a few other issues, and we really feel like we're being tested here.

With thanks as always,

schnide

hazyjo

Quiet enjoyment is about people entering your flat, not about noise. So, yes, in one way, if they're entering to prepare food, it is affecting your quiet enjoyment. But... you're giving them permission.

It's a tough one as if the pub goes under (if they are struggling), gawd knows what you'll end up with underneath.

You can say a flat no to them using the kitchen. I wouldn't have allowed it in the first place, tbh.

Jx

schnide

Thanks. I was aware that 'quiet' enjoyment referred to a principle rather than literal but was including it nonetheless in terms of their actions causing us disruption and in turn, unpleasantness. The pub is more than struggling and we suspect our rent subsidises it - but that doesn't mean we should be exploited for the sake of their poor business decisions.

I should point out that they don't prepare food as a standard service - the pub officially doesn't serve food except for private bookings (ie pool nights, which don't happen often, and private functions). However, on top of everything else, on principle alone it is becoming a strain.

geoffky

9pm is not a late night ,i would be going off my head if it was 11pm..you must of thought about noise when you first rented as pubs are often very noisy or were until the recession.

schnide

geoffky wrote: »

9pm is not a late night ,i would be going off my head if it was 11pm..you must of thought about noise when you first rented as pubs are often very noisy or were until the recession.

Thanks, but that wasn't what I was asking the forum. I don't know what your weekdays are like, but our weekends are precious and Sunday is a day of rest and relaxation.

We were told when we moved into the flat that Friday and Saturday nights in particular could get noisy. These were the informal terms of the place when we moved in. They are now proposing 4pm-9pm on an additional day, where the first bands to play are heavy metal. 4pm on a Sunday is not what I'd call an acceptable time for our plates to be shaking in the kitchen..

(And for the record, it's must 'have'.)

G_M

OK - the noise. I'm afraid I see that as just part of the risk of living above a pub! I once lived above a KFC and the smell, though unpleasant, was just something we had to deal with. If you want peace and quiet, don't live above or next to a pub.

'Quiet Enjoyment'. Not enough info. What kind of tenancy do you have? It certainly sounds like you are sharing premises with your landlord, so you may be an Occupier with Basic Protection or even an Excluded Occupier.

Do you have a separate access? What does th TA say about landlord access/sharing kitchen etc? Is this an HMO? Do you all have a single tenancy or individual ones?

All the above could affect the LL's right of access.

schnide

G_M wrote: »

OK - the noise. I'm afraid I see that as just part of the risk of living above a pub! I once lived above a KFC and the smell, though unpleasant, was just something we had to deal with. If you want peace and quiet, don't live above or next to a pub.

'Quiet Enjoyment'. Not enough info. What kind of tenancy do you have? It certainly sounds like you are sharing premises with your landlord, so you may be an Occupier with Basic Protection or even an Excluded Occupier.

Do you have a separate access? What does th TA say about landlord access/sharing kitchen etc? Is this an HMO? Do you all have a single tenancy or individual ones?

All the above could affect the LL's right of access.

Thanks for the input but I have to again state I think you're missing the point of what's reasonable, ie. what we were told would be the case when we moved in which is now changing. Even beyond that, I'm not just asking about the fact that they want to start these music nights (er, afternoons) but the entire situation.

We do not share premises with the landlord if you mean in terms of them living there. They live off-site. We have a streetdoor with two flights of stairs up to our residential property. The pub has a staff access door which also accesses these front door, but otherwise they are separate premises. Practically, anyway.

I do not believe it is an HMO. We all have individual contracts with the landlord. To my knowledge, the TA does not make reference to them using the property, as I've never been provided with a contract (although I know that by moving into the property I've accepted one nonetheless).

G_M

schnide wrote: »

Thanks for the input but I have to again state I think you're missing the point of what's reasonable, ie. what we were told would be the case when we moved in which is now changing. Even beyond that, I'm not just asking about the fact that they want to start these music nights (er, afternoons) but the entire situation.

We do not share premises with the landlord if you mean in terms of them living there. They live off-site. We have a streetdoor with two flights of stairs up to our residential property. The pub has a staff access door which also accesses these front door, but otherwise they are separate premises. Practically, anyway.

I do not believe it is an HMO. We all have individual contracts with the landlord. To my knowledge, the TA does not make reference to them using the property, as I've never been provided with a contract (although I know that by moving into the property I've accepted one nonetheless).

No, YOU are missing the point. What is "reasonable" depends on the tenancy agreement! If the TA allows LL access to the kitchen then it is reasonable for him to ... access the kitchen.

Hence my more detailed questions.

6 individuals, each with a separate contract, living in a 3 storey building is almost certainly a HMO. I admit I'm not an expert in that area, but believe different councils have slightly different criteria, so Google "HMO XXX council" and check their website.

It is relevant because the LL will normally be permitted access to the shared/communal areas (eg kitchen), whereas in a non HMO set-up, an AST with no LL on the premises (ie lodger/similar) the LL would NOT have access and then you would be entitled to "quiet enjoyment".

Even if this is not an HMO as I suspect, the separate contracts held by each of you affect the LL's right of access.

As does, perhaps, the fact that the LL is the publican (??) downstairs, so you are living in the same building.

You are looking, I believe, for a simple answer ("yes you have a right to quiet enjoyment you can kick out the LL") and must accept that the answer is not so simple.

Telling us we are "missing the point" does not alter that.

edit: Finally - the fact that you have no written contract adds to the problem. The "contract" is whatever has been "agreed". And since you have been allowing the LL to use the kitchen he could reasonably argue this was part of the contract!

geoffky

schnide wrote: »

Thanks, but that wasn't what I was asking the forum. I don't know what your weekdays are like, but our weekends are precious and Sunday is a day of rest and relaxation.

We were told when we moved into the flat that Friday and Saturday nights in particular could get noisy. These were the informal terms of the place when we moved in. They are now proposing 4pm-9pm on an additional day, where the first bands to play are heavy metal. 4pm on a Sunday is not what I'd call an acceptable time for our plates to be shaking in the kitchen..

(And for the record, it's must 'have'.)

my days are lovely and quiet because i bought a detached house away from others and did not rent above a pub when i knew it could be a noisy place at times...Hindsight is a wonderful thing..I feel you are in a pickle of your own making..

Sugared-frog

I've no idea about the music night, however I do wonder whether they are allowed to prepare food in your kitchen. I think there are some pretty strict rules about preparing food and I doubt your kitchen would meet them (though I'm not knowledgeable about this so could be wrong).

sequence

Yes are they preparing food for themselves, or the pub ? If the latter they shouldn't be using a domestic kitchen for commercial food preparation.

I've no idea why anyone would let their landlord prepare food in their kitchen though, or why any landlord would want to prepare food in their tenants kitchen, it seems really weird. Are they paying the electric/gas for the cooker, and do they do the dishes afterward ?