Gross Misconduct

daveys_2

I said:
I know it is worrying, and unfair to have this hanging over you over the weekend. I assume that your husband received his summons to the hearing today. If so it could be agued that a reasonable employer would do all that they can to resolve this matter without it dragging out over the weekend. If they knew it couldn’t be resolved today, then delay notifying him until Monday, with a Tuesday hearing.

Jarndyce said
It is not unfair. The employer is required to give reasonable notice of a hearing. 24 hours notice would be unfair - and a breach of the ACAS Code of Practice!
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Of course it’s unfair. Based on my original assumption the hearing is on Monday, the next working day (of course I’m making the assumption that the organisation works Mon-Fri).

On this basis, regardless of the number of hours physically elapsed, the OP’s husband has no more time to arrange a suitable defence and representation, but also has the stress and trauma of two further nights of worry

Jarndyce

daveys wrote: »

I said:
I know it is worrying, and unfair to have this hanging over you over the weekend. I assume that your husband received his summons to the hearing today. If so it could be agued that a reasonable employer would do all that they can to resolve this matter without it dragging out over the weekend. If they knew it couldn’t be resolved today, then delay notifying him until Monday, with a Tuesday hearing.

Jarndyce said
It is not unfair. The employer is required to give reasonable notice of a hearing. 24 hours notice would be unfair - and a breach of the ACAS Code of Practice!
--

Of course it’s unfair. Based on my original assumption the hearing is on Monday, the next working day (of course I’m making the assumption that the organisation works Mon-Fri).

On this basis, regardless of the number of hours physically elapsed, the OP’s husband has no more time to arrange a suitable defence and representation, but also has the stress and trauma of two further nights of worry

Oh I'm sorry - I was confusing the concept of fairness which exists in your head (irrelevant) with the concept of fairness as exists in the handling of disciplinary procedures (very relevant).

The ACAS Code of Practice requires that hearings are held without unreasonable delay but giving the employee reasonable time to prepare their case. Under the old law 5 days was considered appropriate and this has not been challenged under the new. So one working day's notice would certainly not be reasonable or fair and would leave the employer open to having any compensation awarded against them uplifted by 25% at a tribunal.

daveys_2

I agree what's fair in my head is irrelevant, but what's more relevant is what's going on in the head of the OP and her husband, who's position i was trying to put myself in.

I'm sorry if I expressed myself badly...possibly a communcation thing which is how (I think) this disciplinary action has come about. At least we can agree (albeit for different reasons) that holding this disciplinary meeting on Monday is inappropriate.

TBH judging from the OP, I don't think the employer has much understanding of the ACAS Code of Conduct

VitaK

Jarndyce wrote: »

The bottom line is that your husband lied to his manager about his need to get away from work, so yes that is certainly a potential disciplinary offence - whether it is gross misconduct depends on the detailed facts of the case, the context etc etc.

I agree. If im reading this post right the manager could have been put in a very difficult position.

dmliverpool

daveys wrote: »

Breach of confidence implies that he has been giving away confidential information, a far cry from asking to leave work early.



This depends whether he was trying to gain some kind of advantage, or deceive his employer in some way. However you state that you had to be at the airport that night, so regardless of when the flight took off, he had to be there, and as a responsible husband take a degree of responsibility for both of your safe arrivals.



The term ‘kicked off’ can easily be interpreted by an impartial observer as your husband being physically violent towards his employer. The witness statements demonstrate that this is not the case, and I would be using this (and anything else that can be latched onto) as a lever to demonstrate that the employer is exaggerating his claims. Once one part of the allegation can disproved, it then casts doubt onto the rest of the allegations.



Again demonstrates that the manager is unreasonable (at best) and unprofessional, once again casting doubt into the rest of the allegations.



I’m not surprised. However the union rep should be doing more than support, but representing him and pointing these facts out at the hearing. Out of interest which union is it?



I know it is worrying, and unfair to have this hanging over you over the weekend. I assume that your husband received his summons to the hearing today. If so it could be agued that a reasonable employer would do all that they can to resolve this matter without it dragging out over the weekend. If they knew it couldn’t be resolved today, then delay notifying him until Monday, with a Tuesday hearing.



You’re welcome

A burglary? lol :rotfl: Don't be silly this is at work. If your husbands work record is good and progressive I would see it as the manager was jealous at being stuck in that place whilst your off lording it. In any event I wouldn't lose any sleep as you would be able to prove it.

If your husband is a load mouth in terms of personality they may be under lying authority issues and lying to your boss isn't a good road to go down as they will not trust you, which is what work is about. Like it or lump it. In that case if this is the underlying view of your employer, you both will lose. Tribunals can only work with the law and the set up of the business itself and if it's set up to heavily favour the manager, again you lose.

I personally wouldn't have gone down this route as a professional manager, I would have picked your husband off for his work ethic and performance which if he is still employed there and you were to win a case, very likely to happen as a result.;) This is because it sounds like he has already had a run in with this crazy manager.

I think it was extreme for them to be shouting gross misconduct and if you had planned better you both would have taken the whole of that last day of and gone down to primanni for some last minute holiday junk as I do. Another is to go down the couples route and rig a special occasion to make it sound good. However you are back with the risk of being caught lying again which is how you got into this place. :cool:

dickydonkin

He also stated that we were flying to America that evening eventhough we weren't until very early the next morning.

But you would both need time to pack, get to the airport and ensure you are there three hours before an international flight.

Just something to add to your defence.

heretolearn_2

Can we clarify exactly what the disciplinary is for? I don't think all this 'he wanted to leave early because we needed to get to the airport at X time' is at all relevant. To put it bluntly, so what? It's not the employers problem. He should have booked a half day's holiday if he was not able to work his normal hours, or asked for special permission but NOT on the day that he wanted to go early. Presumably your flight was booked before that day? Why did your husband leave it so late to ask if he could leave work early? The company was perfectly reasonable to say no to that if it was not convenient.

But none of that has anything to do with the disciplinary he faces, does it. This seems to be that when he was told 'no' he lost his temper with his manager? Did he lose his temper? Use any abusive/swear words? Get argumentative? If he didn't, well it's his word against his manager, unless the witnesses will back him up.

chrissy21_2

Adding in my two penn'oth :-)

Start with the facts because the postings and subsequent postings seem fairly emotional?

Did your husband request an early finish? Seems Yes? Was that early finish granted? Dunno.

If the early finish was sanctioned then there is no case to answer here. Lying or misinterpreting the facts of why the early finish was needed is irrelevant we've all done it haven't we? I need an early finish to go to the Dr's when really you've got some tickets to see your favourite band or something. As long as you work the time back or not getting paid for it under any work scheme then that is fine.

If you didnt then that could be could be construed as taking advantage of the company or getting paid for hours you didnt work (fraud).

Its seems to be clear they arent taking that route.

So the only case to answer is was it authorised or not? If not then your husband could be in trouble although probably not gross misconduct if it was for a first offence especially.

With regards the arguement if there were witnesses to say it was one sided then your husband has little to worry about unless these people are considered to be his friends in which case they might dismiss these statements.

The only other thing your husband could do would be to raise a grievance about the way in which the matter was handled. This would immediately put a stop to the disciplinary hearing until the grievance had been heard and might lead to the investigation being cancelled although I very much doubt it.

Hope it all turns out well for your OH.

I know its poo but stick in there.

daveys_2

Any feedback has to how all this panned out in the end?

Jarndyce

daveys wrote: »

Any feedback has to how all this panned out in the end?

There's a quite simple rule about such threads. If the OP has been told they will lose, and they win, they come back to gloat. If they've been told they will lose, and they lose, they do not. The vast majority don't come back.