Supplier will be VAT Registered in a few months

JasonLVC

chrismac1 wrote: »

Granny sucks eggs. How are you going to get a 64-8 sorted when the client doesn't know half the boxes on the form to tick?

The 64-8 only asks for the clients name/address, the agents name/address and the clients VAT number. Hardly rocket science. If client doesn't know their own name/address then thats a big worry. I usually get client to just sign the form and then I fill in the boxes for them as I have all their tax numbers, business address details, etc.

If you mean the 5 questions required to register for online services, the hardest question is the effective registration date as many traders may not hold their VAT certificate anymore, just call HMRC (no 64-8 required) and ask them to send a copy to client and within a week you'll have the certificate which will have half the answers you need to register for online services.

The other 2 questions, Box 5 and last VAT return, shouldn't be a problem as the client should retain VAT returns to be compliant with the legislation. if they don't have the last VAT return/Box 5 figure due to fire, ex-wife or tragic flood;) the last cheque/BACS payment on the bank statement to HMRC should answer the question without need to speak to HMRC.

antonic

If you think your client has been unfairly treated then of course he has the right to complain and if HMRC have made a mistake they will admit to it and try to sort the problem out.

Good luck with the complaint, I hope your client gets the right result.

chrismac1 wrote: »

The client calls up and says "I give you permission to speak to Mr X of X Accountancy, who is my accountant and I want to be my VAT agent." Ten minutes later Mr. X calls up and can give HMRC the client's name, the name of the business, the date of birth, the postcode. How hard can it be to give the accountant the Box 5 number or the last month of submitted VAT return?

I have a client who HMRC thinks owes them over £30k in VAT, threatening to wind up what is a perfectly solvent business which has short term cash flow trouble due to an insurance company slow paying a flood payout. In reality the client owes just over £10k. Somehow the client does not know all 5 items, or potentially - it happens at least 5% of the time - the database simply has wrong data in it such as a keying error.

I see no excuse in continuing to jobsworth this one, hence will raise a formal Complaint Case this week if it carries on. Complaints are the one thing dealt with professionally at HMRC.

antonic

I am sure some of them cant even enter the correct data into the right boxes on a VAT return (even when its been calculated for them by a program like Sage) and then wonder they suddenly seem to have a debt bigger than they thought !.

Some also think as JasonLVC says, that they think they are being compliant by sending in the return without payment (or dont submit the return on time) if they do this 4 times they have achieved 15% Default Surcharge in a year by the 5th return

Oh and they do get warned as the letters go like this :
Q1 Help Letter - No monetary penalty
Q2 Surcharge Liability Notice No monetary penalty 2% value of return
Q3 Surcharge Liability Notice Extension - may get Default Surcharge of 5% value of return
Q4 Default Surcharge 10% of value of return
Q5 Default Surcharge 15% of value of return AND they will stay on 15% until they submit & pay all returns online & ontime for 4 quarters.

Have they tried speaking to their VAT Office to arrange a Time To Pay ?

JasonLVC wrote: »

In fairness, if the client doesn't even know their own Box 5 number from last period, it should set alarm bells ringing about the clients compliance.

As for other client, HMRC will only assume it is owed £30k probably becuase client hasn't submitted their VAT return (which generates a surcharge noticve and estimated liability). Is that the case? Client not submitted VAT return becuase they're waiting for payment?

If client has an exceptional delay on a major payment, contact the Time To Pay Unit and tell them this and they will grant 6 months for payment to be made, but that is assuming they've submitted a return but not the payment.

chrismac1

Jason, do you work for the helpline? This business was wiped out in the November 2009 floods, all VAT returns went down the river. The Jobsworth has asked the client to call the bank and find out what they paid in August 2009. Problem - this client often pays amounts which do not tie up to Box 5. How hard can it be to just give the infomation to either her or me and start the ball rolling instead of all this jobsworthy drivel?

JasonLVC

chrismac1 wrote: »

Jason, do you work for the helpline? This business was wiped out in the November 2009 floods, all VAT returns went down the river. The Jobsworth has asked the client to call the bank and find out what they paid in August 2009. Problem - this client often pays amounts which do not tie up to Box 5. How hard can it be to just give the infomation to either her or me and start the ball rolling instead of all this jobsworthy drivel?

Certainly do not work for HMRC, but I specialise in VAT problems and pretty much have seen it all.

The systems can be frustrating sometimes, especially when it comes to security matters, for obvious reasons (but still annoying).

Earlier this year had a client whose premises were swept with fire. Wrote to HRMC and stated we'd be submitting estimated returns for the next two quarters as we rebuilt the records. No problem. We submitted really low returns having got permission to guess (so we just guessed real low even though we had accuratish figures, this improved cash flow whilst awaiting the insurance payout and not incurring penalties/interest).

It'll not be quick, but try contacting the helpline and ask them to send to the client a breakdown of the last 10 VAT returns. They can do this without 64-8 authority as they are not telling you or client anything and will simply post something to the registered address. Once you have the statement, you can then see what the last VAT return period was submitted and what value the Box 5 figure was. Should take around 7 days start-finish.

The alternative is to write to the Wrttien Enquiries team in Southend and explain the problem with no records and how best to register for online services. They'll redirect to the right team anbd you should get a response within 14 days, as they're usually quite efficient at these sort of things.

But yes, see your frustrations and the particular problems your client has. To be fair, its not HMRC's fault your client has no records and has never paid their VAT return in full on time, so I can see why the security walls are so frustrtating, but hopefully two solutions here which should bring a quick close to the matter.

antonic

Just to let you know JasonLVC, that HMRC will NOT issue ANY sort of breakdown (unless there are really good reasons, ie they cant see where the debt comes from) and that if you contact the Written Enquiry Team in Southend and there is a debt on file, it will be referred to a Debt Technical Office who will refuse.

They *may* provide a verbal breakdown, depending on the person who deals with your request, BUT the standard response to this question is "Your Client is legally required to maintain adequate business records".

JasonLVC wrote: »

Certainly do not work for HMRC, but I specialise in VAT problems and pretty much have seen it all.

The systems can be frustrating sometimes, especially when it comes to security matters, for obvious reasons (but still annoying).

Earlier this year had a client whose premises were swept with fire. Wrote to HRMC and stated we'd be submitting estimated returns for the next two quarters as we rebuilt the records. No problem. We submitted really low returns having got permission to guess (so we just guessed real low even though we had accuratish figures, this improved cash flow whilst awaiting the insurance payout and not incurring penalties/interest).

It'll not be quick, but try contacting the helpline and ask them to send to the client a breakdown of the last 10 VAT returns. They can do this without 64-8 authority as they are not telling you or client anything and will simply post something to the registered address. Once you have the statement, you can then see what the last VAT return period was submitted and what value the Box 5 figure was. Should take around 7 days start-finish.

The alternative is to write to the Wrttien Enquiries team in Southend and explain the problem with no records and how best to register for online services. They'll redirect to the right team anbd you should get a response within 14 days, as they're usually quite efficient at these sort of things.

But yes, see your frustrations and the particular problems your client has. To be fair, its not HMRC's fault your client has no records and has never paid their VAT return in full on time, so I can see why the security walls are so frustrtating, but hopefully two solutions here which should bring a quick close to the matter.

JasonLVC

antonic wrote: »

Just to let you know JasonLVC, that HMRC will NOT issue ANY sort of breakdown (unless there are really good reasons, ie they cant see where the debt comes from) and that if you contact the Written Enquiry Team in Southend and there is a debt on file, it will be referred to a Debt Technical Office who will refuse.

They *may* provide a verbal breakdown, depending on the person who deals with your request, BUT the standard response to this question is "Your Client is legally required to maintain adequate business records".

Is that official HMRC policy?

I did exactly what I suggested for my fire damage client, they sent the statement of account to the client upon request, no problems. First thing I do when a client is having a VAT inspection is request a copy of the VAT return history statement from the visiting officer and never had that offer refused.

Remember, this information is the taxpayers legal right, as it is information HMRC hold under the DP Act which means HMRC must divulge all what they hold upon request (albeit only to the taxpayer, hence why I said ask them to send it to the taxpayer). The same rights exist for the NHS, upon request your Doctor must divulge your medical file to you. Cannot charge for it either.

HMRC have a tendency to implement 'rules' at a local level or practical level which far exceed their statutory powers. Why would the Debt Office refuse to send a taxpayer a statement of account? How can a taxpayer pay their debt if HMRC keep it a secret?

Not suggesting you are wrong per se, just HMRC like to make up rules to suit their workflow but they have to operate within the legal framework that already exists.

antonic

Not sure if its official policy, but now when ever a demand for payment goes out a Statement Of Account is issued which gives a breakdown of what is outstanding.

The taxpayer should then be able to cross reference the amount HMRC claim is due with the details of payments already made to HMRC.

As for the DP side of things, any such request should made as a Subject Access Request, not the DPA - also they will provide the info ONCE only, not provide numerous breakdowns.

JasonLVC

antonic wrote: »

Not sure if its official policy, but now when ever a demand for payment goes out a Statement Of Account is issued which gives a breakdown of what is outstanding.

The taxpayer should then be able to cross reference the amount HMRC claim is due with the details of payments already made to HMRC.

As for the DP side of things, any such request should made as a Subject Access Request, not the DPA - also they will provide the info ONCE only, not provide numerous breakdowns.

Why only ONCE? The DP Act, which SAR's come under, does not stipulate the taxpayer can only request the information once?

From the ICO :-

"The Data Protection Act does not limit the number of subject access requests an individual can make to any organisation. However, it does allow some discretion when dealing with requests that are made at unreasonable intervals. The Act says that you are not obliged to comply with an identical or similar request to one you have already dealt with, unless a reasonable interval has elapsed between the first request and any subsequent ones."
http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/principle_6/access_to_personal_data.aspx

So as long as the requests are not every three weeks or vexatious, the taxpayer can ask for the same information again in the future.

I'm not trying to battle/be smart with you by the way, I'm sure you're following protocols, so sorry if it looks like I'm having a go, that is most seriously not my intention.

antonic

Dont worry Jason, I enjoy the quality of our discussions !
Once the SAR is fulfilled the taxpayer will have ALL info held by HMRC.
If they have any future problems they should be able to reconcile the debt with the info provided under the SAR.
If this info was provided on a regular basis think of the cost in staff time & money to provide info that should already be in the possession of the taxpayer.