Using annual leave whilst signed off work

Bev._2

I recently found out that if you're signed off work with a doctors note, then your employer can legally make you use your annual leave. Whether this is limited to a set number of days or not i don't know (i.e. If you were signed off work for all of January due to your leg bone snapping in two (extreme example here) i don't know if they could use your full 20 days leaving you with nothing for the rest of the year).


Anyway, i have an operation coming up. I have also booked all my annual leave, but it's not all been taken yet. I think i have about 10 days booked. 5 in November & 5 in December.
I will be able to use the 5 in November no problem, but the 5 in December are AFTER my operation.

Due to the operation, i'm going to be unable to work. I don't know how long for but i imagine 3-6 weeks.


Question here is, can i say to my employer, can you pay me my holiday days whilst i'm signed off, or can they refuse to do this (& therefore i'd lose 5 days of my annual leave).

getmore4less

Are you sure they can make you take holiday?

You can use holiday to make up wages and should use holiday if you actually go on holiday while sick but I did not think they could make you take holiday.

Holiday acrues while sick and is one of the cases where you can carry over statutory holiday across a holiday year(maternity is the other).

So you don't lose annual leave while sick.

Bev._2

Some people at my place of work are on different "holiday systems".

By that, i mean some people are paid based on their previous 3 month average earnings, so if they do more hours in this time, they get more holiday pay. I'm one of these. You can end up being paid more for a holiday than you would if you were working.
Others are paid on an 8 hour rate. So if they take a holiday (1 day) then they will get their basic hourly rate * 8 (hours). So if they're on £6/hr, they will get for that day: £6 * 8hours = £48 for the day, but on a 3 month average, they could earn so much more.
It doesn't appear to be department related either (i THINK).


Why am i telling you this? Because a co-worker of mine doesn't take holidays really - simply because he gets paid less while on holiday than he would while working (he's on the different system to me).

He had some time off & his boss (different to my boss) instructed the payroll manager to pay him up his holidays.
Payroll said you can't do that.
His boss insists you can & says that he has taken legal advice on the matter & been told you CAN use someones holidays whilst on the sick (instead of paying them SSP - so they'll get paid more in other words). He said to pay this worker his annual leave as otherwise he wont use them (the full 20 day allowance).



A good few years ago, i had the last week of December booked off, yet i ended up being signed off for some reason which i forget. I got paid SSP, not my holidays.
Could i carry these days over? No.
If you don't use your days between Jan 1st - Dec 31st then you lose them - that's company policy & in the contracts.




Still, i'm not overly concerned about the rights/wrongs about my co-worker right now (even though it'd be good for future reference). What i'm looking for, is whether they can refuse to pay me my annual leave whilst signed off (& i would therefore lose about 5 days of this years 20 day allowance).

LadyMissA

where did you hear they can make you take holiday when you are out sick?

getmore4less

Bev. wrote: »

Still, i'm not overly concerned about the rights/wrongs about my co-worker right now (even though it'd be good for future reference). What i'm looking for, is whether they can refuse to pay me my annual leave whilst signed off (& i would therefore lose about 5 days of this years 20 day allowance).

Company policy and contracts cannot overrule statutory rights.

If you are unable to take your holiday due to sickness it carries over.

LadyMissA

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/holidays_and_holiday_pay.htm#your_employer_refuses_to_let_you_take_holiday

Uncertain

Bev. wrote: »

I recently found out that if you're signed off work with a doctors note, then your employer can legally make you use your annual leave.

Sorry, but you found out wrong!

Bev._2

I'm quite happy to be proven wrong. I'm not challenging anyone here. I have a boss & my co-worker has a different boss. My co-workers boss said he took "legal advice" & found out that you can make them take annual leave if they're off on the sick. Apparently this has been done in court.

Whether this is right or wrong, i really don't know - i'm ONLY telling you guys what i've been told by this chap. End result was - my co-worker had to take annual leave whilst off. He didn't care though (not that it's the point) because he'll lose his days anyway, so he didn't mind using them whilst "on the sick". So to answer the question - that's where i found out ... from HIS boss.


LadyMissA - thanks for the link, but would my employer technically be refusing me holidays?

They have accepted my holidays for end December ... yet if i'm signed off work, i'm unfit for work & they will likely want to pay me SSP & not holiday pay (if they have a chance of paying you less, trust me, they'll take it).

They will say that i can't be on holiday AND "on the sick" at the same time. I'm not 100% sure, but i'm 99% sure they've said these exact words to me a few years ago in a similar scenario. If i'm on holiday i'm fit for work, if i'm "on the sick" then i'm not. I'm quite sure they've said this to me before.

However, i do know that they've let other people take holiday days whilst on the sick <-- if this is important for my case or not?

LadyMissA

Bev. wrote: »

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LadyMissA - thanks for the link, but would my employer technically be refusing me holidays?

You said you would lose 5 days or something in one of the posts.

Ask the 'boss' to put it in writing that if you are off sick they can by law make you take it as holiday.

As far as I am aware you are allowed 28 days (incl) bank holidays as a minimum and you can't take these holidays if you are off sick so they can't be treated as the same.

The same goes for if you have a week booked for example and go down ill on the Sunday if you call into work on Monday as sick they cancell your holiday and put you down as sick meaning you have still that weeks hoilday to take.

I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong so do not take that as 100% true ok

LadyMissA

Bev. wrote: »

They will say that i can't be on holiday AND "on the sick" at the same time. I'm not 100% sure, but i'm 99% sure they've said these exact words to me a few years ago in a similar scenario. If i'm on holiday i'm fit for work, if i'm "on the sick" then i'm not. I'm quite sure they've said this to me before.

However, i do know that they've let other people take holiday days whilst on the sick <-- if this is important for my case or not?

I thought your problem was they are making you use holiday instead of them paying SSP/sick pay?

This now sounds like you want to be paid holiday pay?

I know you can agree with a company if you have had say one day off sick and do not get paid for it to take it as holiday if you are going to be short in your money as I have done that before where I was not getting paid so took it as a days holiday but they can not make you do that.

getmore4less

I think you need stop believing every thing your company tells you

Bev. wrote: »

I'm quite happy to be proven wrong. I'm not challenging anyone here. I have a boss & my co-worker has a different boss. My co-workers boss said he took "legal advice" & found out that you can make them take annual leave if they're off on the sick. Apparently this has been done in court.

Don't think this is true, he probably made it up, might have been possible some time ago but legislation changed to alow cary over of holidays.

Whether this is right or wrong, i really don't know - i'm ONLY telling you guys what i've been told by this chap. End result was - my co-worker had to take annual leave whilst off. He didn't care though (not that it's the point) because he'll lose his days anyway, so he didn't mind using them whilst "on the sick". So to answer the question - that's where i found out ... from HIS boss.

Ok lets leave that, different senario and thats what the person wanted anyway.

LadyMissA - thanks for the link, but would my employer technically be refusing me holidays?

They have accepted my holidays for end December ... yet if i'm signed off work, i'm unfit for work & they will likely want to pay me SSP & not holiday pay (if they have a chance of paying you less, trust me, they'll take it).

Ok that would be the default use the sick policy


They will say that i can't be on holiday AND "on the sick" at the same time. I'm not 100% sure, but i'm 99% sure they've said these exact words to me a few years ago in a similar scenario. If i'm on holiday i'm fit for work, if i'm "on the sick" then i'm not. I'm quite sure they've said this to me before.

Tell that to the peope that went on holiday when sick and got fired for not using holiday.

You can be fit enough to go on holiday but not work

However, i do know that they've let other people take holiday days whilst on the sick <-- if this is important for my case or not?

If you want the money then you should be able to use the holiday.

The key point is you do not loose the holiday if you can't take it because you are sick, which seems to be your main motivation for having it paid.