Pv solar install the inverter in loft or garage

don0301

Solar_Novice wrote: »

Excellent for keeping an eye on things!

I had the inverter put in a cupboard above the stairs – very cool place. And my father located his within a cupboard under the stairs next to the electric meter - again very cool. His installers wanted to mount in the dormer loft, but this is a very hot place in summer. I think they were more interested in the easy option not the longevity of the inverter.

quite enough nonsense about this now....

zeupater wrote: »

The reasoning behind temperature derating is that in theory, for every 10C increase in operating temperature you half the expected lifespan of an electronic system ....

rofl

zeupater

don0301 wrote: »

quite enough nonsense about this now....




rofl

:exclamati

'Arrhenius' ? ..... :whistle::silenced:

don0301

zeupater wrote: »

:exclamati

'Arrhenius' ? ..... :whistle::silenced:

so if the loft is cooler in the winter that sort of balances it out, right?

again, rofl

zeupater

don0301 wrote: »

so if the loft is cooler in the winter that sort of balances it out, right?

again, rofl

Hi

Depends on how hard your inverter is working and what the ambient temperature is. In the winter it'll make very little difference ... in the summer it would likely be different ... my loft goes well above 40C in the summer whilst the garage is around 18-20C ..... if your inverter is in the loft then that's fine, others may have different views, but remember, derating is there for a reason and arrhenius is used for accelerated life failure testing for component and circuitry reliability, just as salt spray testing is used to accelerate corrosion failures.

Thank you for your highly inspiring and much valued input to debates and discussions, it is a welcome pleasure to see such a considered and detailed analysis of the delights of such an outstanding example of photovoltaic generation, however atypical it may be, from one who is so obviously expert in these matters .....

As one so unworthy to stand in the light cast by the mere presence of greatness, I humbly bow & scrape at the feet of my master in homage ... :think:, alternatively, ignore Troll-like comments and commentary and attempt to help those who ask .....

HTH
Z

ps - For anyone who hasn't had time to follow all of the threads on inverter location over the past couple of years - my inverter is in the garage, this being for good reasons.

don0301

bringing up arrhenius equation is helping? how?

an equation for component temperature is hardly the same as ambient temperature, is it?

amazingly, inverters are designed with features to keep internal temperature within a certain Operating Range.

I'm sure you're gonna argue that arrhenious equation is massively relevant to inverter location in a house.

I, meanwhile, will just go back to rofl.

zeupater

don0301 wrote: »

bringing up arrhenious equation is helping? how?

an equation for component temperature is hardly the same as ambient temperature, is it?

amazingly, inverters are designed with features to keep internal temperature within a certain Operating Range.

I'm sure you're gonna argue that arrhenious equation is massively relevant to inverter location iin a house.

I, meanwhile, will just go back to rofl.

Hi

Then there's obviously no need for inverters to have temperature derating, perhaps you could write to your inverter manufacturer and suggest that they could improve the generation efficiency of their models by simply removing derating and having a max-temperature safety shutdown ....

Logic and application of logic doesn't really seem to be a strong consideration in the referenced post .... perhaps we should consider the relative elements separately.

Take a dry material, any dry material at any temperature and place it in an environment with a different temperature and equilibruim will be reached. Force air over that material and you are simply accelerating the rate at which equilibrium will be reached.

Take an electrical circuit, add power to it and resistance will create heat. The circuit will rise in temperature until the temperature of the circuit reaches a point where the heatloss through convection and radiation reaches equilibrium with the heatgain through resistance.

Now lets combine the above and force airflow over the circuit, do we get an accelerated heatloss, which cools the circuit - yes ..... but can the heat of the circuit be cooled to below the ambient heat of the forced airflow - no, not without a catalyst such as evaporation .... so, is the temperature of a circuit operating in higher ambient temperature conditions higher than one in a cooler location - yes.

In theory, for every hour that you operate a circuit at 35C as opposed to 25C you would add two hours of relative wear to the circuit .....

HTH
Z

don0301

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Then there's obviously no need for inverters to have temperature derating, perhaps you could write to your inverter manufacturer and suggest that they could improve the generation efficiency of their models by simply removing derating and having a max-temperature safety shutdown ....

Logic and application of logic doesn't really seem to be a strong consideration in the referenced post .... perhaps we should consider the relative elements separately.

Take a dry material, any dry material at any temperature and place it in an environment with a different temperature and equilibruim will be reached. Force air over that material and you are simply accelerating the rate at which equilibrium will be reached.

Take an electrical circuit, add power to it and resistance will create heat. The circuit will rise in temperature until the temperature of the circuit reaches a point where the heatloss through convection and radiation reaches equilibrium with the heatgain through resistance.

Now lets combine the above and force airflow over the circuit, do we get an accelerated heatloss, which cools the circuit - yes ..... but can the heat of the circuit be cooled to below the ambient heat of the forced airflow - no, not without a catalyst such as evaporation .... so, is the temperature of a circuit operating in higher ambient temperature conditions higher than one in a cooler location - yes.

In theory, for every hour that you operate a circuit at 35C as opposed to 25C you would add two hours of wear to the circuit .....

HTH
Z

lets continue this nonsense......

how many days of a year is a loft colder than the house compared to when its warmer?

how much extra electrical loss do you have by having your inverter in the garage?

will it cover your inverter lasting 2,3,5,8? times longer than everyone elses?

I'll just get back to rofl...

zeupater

don0301 wrote: »

lets continue this nonsense......

how many days of a year is a loft colder than the house compared to when its warmer?

how much extra electrical loss do you have by having your inverter in the garage?

will it cover your inverter lasting 2,3,5,8? times longer than everyone elses?

I'll just get back to rofl...

Hi

It's really more to do with when the inverter is operating at high power in high temperatures than total operation hours.

Regarding electrical losses, well that's down to system design, the additional resistance in our DC runs was offset by increasing the cables from 4mm to 6mm, so no effective additional losses, it may have cost a few pounds more for the cable, but I have a system which I am happy with, not one which suited the installers' margin

Regarding inverter life, who knows when considering a single inverter, however, on average the cooler operating temperatures whilst operating in the summer should increase the lifespan. If the inverter life is deemed to be 10 years a simple 10% increase in lifespan would equate to a saving of somewhere between £10 & £20/year in amortising replacement units, then work from there, it doesn't need to be twice the lifespan, or more, for it to make financial sense ... at least it was my decision, which was based on having various previous 'off-grid' pv systems for many years before the current system went in ...

Whether you agree or not doesn't really make any difference to me, perhaps, as this isn't really a technical forum, you would consider expending a little time airing your views on one of the fora which are mainly frequented by installers to gauge what the consensus is amongst the 'experts', and provide us all with a little insight from inside the industry ....

HTH
Z

don0301

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

It's really more to do with when the inverter is operating at high power in high temperatures than total operation hours.

Regarding electrical losses, well that's down to system design, the additional resistance in our DC runs was offset by increasing the cables from 4mm to 6mm, so no effective additional losses, it may have cost a few pounds more for the cable, but I have a system which I am happy with, not one which suited the installers' margin

Regarding inverter life, who knows when considering a single inverter, however, on average the cooler operating temperatures whilst operating in the summer should increase the lifespan. If the inverter life is deemed to be 10 years a simple 10% increase in lifespan would equate to a saving of somewhere between £10 & £20/year in amortising replacement units, then work from there, it doesn't need to be twice the lifespan, or more, for it to make financial sense ... at least it was my decision, which was based on having various previous 'off-grid' pv systems for many years before the current system went in ...

Whether you agree or not doesn't really make any difference to me, perhaps, as this isn't really a technical forum, you would consider expending a little time airing your views on one of the fora which are mainly frequented by installers to gauge what the consensus is amongst the 'experts', and provide us all with a little insight from inside the industry ....

HTH
Z

I'm not disagreeing with you

the equation you quoted is!

don0301

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

It's really more to do with when the inverter is operating at high power in high temperatures than total operation hours.

Regarding electrical losses, well that's down to system design, the additional resistance in our DC runs was offset by increasing the cables from 4mm to 6mm, so no effective additional losses, it may have cost a few pounds more for the cable, but I have a system which I am happy with, not one which suited the installers' margin

Regarding inverter life, who knows when considering a single inverter, however, on average the cooler operating temperatures whilst operating in the summer should increase the lifespan. If the inverter life is deemed to be 10 years a simple 10% increase in lifespan would equate to a saving of somewhere between £10 & £20/year in amortising replacement units, then work from there, it doesn't need to be twice the lifespan, or more, for it to make financial sense ... at least it was my decision, which was based on having various previous 'off-grid' pv systems for many years before the current system went in ...

Whether you agree or not doesn't really make any difference to me, perhaps, as this isn't really a technical forum, you would consider expending a little time airing your views on one of the fora which are mainly frequented by installers to gauge what the consensus is amongst the 'experts', and provide us all with a little insight from inside the industry ....

HTH
Z

are you sure?

how many extra metres?

lets calculate your losses