Bio ethanol fires

Taadaa

I thought I had posted this but it seems to have disappeaered!

I am thinking of replacing our electric fire with an antique cast iron insert to use with bio ethanol in tins (a replacement kit is available on the internet). Does anyone have any experience of using this? Some heat output is required, and not too expensive, but it will only be used occasionally.

Thank you!

rogerblack

Taadaa wrote: »

I thought I had posted this but it seems to have disappeaered!

I am thinking of replacing our electric fire with an antique cast iron insert to use with bio ethanol in tins (a replacement kit is available on the internet). Does anyone have any experience of using this? Some heat output is required, and not too expensive, but it will only be used occasionally.

Thank you!

You do know that bioethanol is often very far from carbon neutral?
Research done on US bioethanol is divided on if it uses a little more, or a little less fossil fuel than ethanol you get out.

This is counting everything, from the amount of fuel used to produce pesticides and fertilisers, to the amount processing the crop, ...

Taadaa

What, in your opinion, is a 'carbon neutral' fuel then? The likes of solar panels and wind turbines may have zero carbon output but their manufacture has a massive environmental impact, using materials that are for the most part not sustainable.

Granted I need to do a little more research, but what I am looking for is something more sustainable than my electric fire that is affordable on a limited budget. The answer might well be to get shot of the fire and replace it with nothing.

Taadaa

No, there never is, is there?!

rogerblack

Taadaa wrote: »

What, in your opinion, is a 'carbon neutral' fuel then? The likes of solar panels and wind turbines may have zero carbon output but their manufacture has a massive environmental impact, using materials that are for the most part not sustainable..

Wood is fairly close.
The best 'carbon neutral' fuel is a good wool sweater.
This, and insulation.
A fairly small investment in draught sealing, and such can often reap big rewards.
Turning down the heating a little too.
Investigate if there are any grants available to you for cavity wall, or loft insulation.
Gas is more sustainable than electricity, if you can - a kWh of electricity produces around twice the carbon emissions to generate as a kWh of gas used at home.

Sometimes altering the way you do things can help.
For example, I'm currently stretched out on the sofa, under a lovely furry blanket, with an electric blanket (specifically designed for this sort of use).
This keeps me toasty, using only around 30W of power, though it's 13C in here.
First I'd advise doing a _complete_ energy audit of your home. Go round every single appliance, and measure it with a power meter (these are around 10 quid).
Then consider replacing the higher usage ones.

Taadaa

I'm not sure that I would agree with wood being carbon neutral, given that it takes resource to cut it, process it and transport it, and it can no longer do its job in terms of absorbing carbon. Not to mention it takes years for it to grow big enough to be viable, taking up water in the process.

We do have gas central heating and British Gas are coming around to survey for loft and cavity wall insulation; we already have some of the former, unsure of the later. I want to use less electricity because of the unit price, hence the removal of the electric fire.

I manage energy and environmental impacts for a large company where we are implementing ISO:500001 so I am well versed in monitoring and auditing energy use to reduce it. We have a smart meter on the gas and I have a portable energy meter. Hence the reason why I want to be rid of the electric fire...!

rogerblack

Taadaa wrote: »

I'm not sure that I would agree with wood being carbon neutral, given that it takes resource to cut it, process it and transport it, and it can no longer do its job in terms of absorbing carbon. Not to mention it takes years for it to grow big enough to be viable, taking up water in the process.

Fairly close - not zero.
If it's transported significant distances, that's a major issue.
Harvested from managed woodland, or from cuttings, it will be replaced, so there is no direct carbon addition, just from the managment.

The unit costs of bioethanol will be _vastly_ higher than that of the fire.

Replacing with a gas fire would be the lowest per-unit cost solution.

zeupater

Taadaa wrote: »

I'm not sure that I would agree with wood being carbon neutral, given that it takes resource to cut it, process it and transport it, and it can no longer do its job in terms of absorbing carbon. Not to mention it takes years for it to grow big enough to be viable, taking up water in the process.

We do have gas central heating and British Gas are coming around to survey for loft and cavity wall insulation; we already have some of the former, unsure of the later. I want to use less electricity because of the unit price, hence the removal of the electric fire.

I manage energy and environmental impacts for a large company where we are implementing ISO:500001 so I am well versed in monitoring and auditing energy use to reduce it. We have a smart meter on the gas and I have a portable energy meter. Hence the reason why I want to be rid of the electric fire...!

Hi

I don't follow the logic, unless you have your own bioethanol plant your own arguments against wood apply just as much, then there's the energy in processing the bio-fuel. Taking up water ? :rotfl: ... well, it rains, plants utilise osmosis to absorb water, plants transpire, it rains, cycle completed ... then again, if you don't want to use wood because it would upset the 'natural balance' why would you use any other plant form as they follow exactly the same lifecycle. As for dead trees not absorbing carbon, neither do dead crops, but both are replaceable on a sustainable basis .... another extremely valid point is the biomass potential per hectare/acre for wood v crops, then again there's the efficiency of carbon capture through coppicing, and ... _pale_ ... well you've probably got the idea by now ...

Your realistic options on being close to carbon neutrality are logs & woodchip, so if you want to replace the electric fire and have a chimney get yourself a log burner .... if you can't face the mess & fussing which that would bring, get a gas fire as it'll be much cheaper to buy than a log burner and much cheaper to run than your electric fire.

It's good that you are looking at increasing the insulation levels as the cheapest and greenest fuel you can ever have is that which you don't need to buy. Insulate, insulate and when you've done that, insulate some more. If you currently have loft insulation it's probably 100mm ... an installer would likely top this up to 270mm to meet current recommendations .... but if you're really serious you should look at having 500mm which should provide a U-value of somewhere around 0.09. At this time of year the DIY sheds usually sell heavily subsidised rolls, I saw some at about £3(ish) each a couple of weeks ago (approx 5sqm to 7sqm/roll and 170mm or 200mm thick) ...

HTH
Z

zeupater

Hi

Additionally there's cost ....

(Excluding burn efficiency)

Dry logs - Approx 4kWh/kg (~£100/tonne bulk, depending on location) - 2.5p/kWh
Gas - Approx 3p/kWh
Electricity - Approx 12p/kWh
Bioethanol - Approx 6kWh/litre (~£2/litre) - 33p/kWh

HTH
Z

Taadaa

...I didn't say I wanted a carbon neutral fuel. I don't think there is such a thing, as I already said. It's just a term that makes people feel better about not being greener. What I asked if anyone had any experience of using bio ethanol as a fuel as I want to get rid of my electric fire and was wondering if it would make a suitable replacement... and I did say I needed to research it a bit more. I don't have a chimney so anything that creates smoke is out. There is guidance on ventilation in rooms/size they should be with gas fires installed so I'm not keen on that option either. I think I might not bother replacing it at all.

zeupater

Taadaa wrote: »

...I didn't say I wanted a carbon neutral fuel. I don't think there is such a thing, as I already said. It's just a term that makes people feel better about not being greener. What I asked if anyone had any experience of using bio ethanol as a fuel as I want to get rid of my electric fire and was wondering if it would make a suitable replacement... and I did say I needed to research it a bit more. I don't have a chimney so anything that creates smoke is out. There is guidance on ventilation in rooms/size they should be with gas fires installed so I'm not keen on that option either. I think I might not bother replacing it at all.

Hi

Balanced flu gas fire ? ... one which looks like a log burner or similar, ie sealed ?

HTH
Z