Generation, with no FIT.

rogerblack

I'm in the process of installing some DIY panels, that are sized to meet my approximate baseline load, and a bit more.
This pays off in comfortably under 5 years.

Has anyone any experience of what's required to hookup for 'generation' payments?
Admittedly these would be tiny - just wondering.

energysavingexp

rogerblack wrote: »

I'm in the process of installing some DIY panels, that are sized to meet my approximate baseline load, and a bit more.
This pays off in comfortably under 5 years.

Has anyone any experience of what's required to hookup for 'generation' payments?
Admittedly these would be tiny - just wondering.

you cannot do it yourself
you need to be on the micro gen register and the equipment also needs to be approved, to recieve the FIT payments

or are you just after the export payment @ 3.1p per kw

what size system are you fitting and what do you think you will produce

thenudeone

Even with the very generous government-implemented feed in tariffs and the cheapest quote you can find, you will not pay back the installation cost in 5 years.

Without the FIT, you're looking at 25 years plus to recover the cost of a professional install. Even if you just take the cost of materials, it wouldn't be anywhere near as low as 5 years to pay back, without FIT.

Even if you are not claiming the FIT you will still need to meet all the relevant building regs, not just the electrical ones (and pay the council for building control notice); and probably notify the local supply company (G83 procedure?).

I doubt you could sell the exported electricity either (i.e. the export tariff, usually 3.1p of 50% of your generation) unless the scheme was fully MCS compliant.

Sorry if this all sounds negative, but as long as you have access to mains power, solar power simply cannot be justified on financial grounds without the FIT.
If you feel strongly about it on environmental grounds, you'd be much better simply buying all your power from a 100% renewable energy provider - here's a comparison http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/BuyersGuides/Energy/GreenElectricitySuppliers.aspx

rogerblack

thenudeone wrote: »

Even with the very generous government-implemented feed in tariffs and the cheapest quote you can find, you will not pay back the installation cost in 5 years.

Thanks for the comments about MCS certification - what I'd expected.
To address the other points.
This is partly out of interest, rather than any financial incentive - however I happen to have the knowledge and a large slice of the materials - so why not?

On a financial matter - I've paid around 40p/W for some bare cells - and assembled a test panel which works well.

On planning permission - these are freestanding panels, so I understand there to be no planning permission required.

pvgis says ~880kWh/kw(p) for my location.
I plan on ~500W(p), so that's ~440kWh.
Regrettably much of this will be wasted, due to being unable to feed it into the grid, however over half of this - ~300kWh/year can be directly used on refrigeration, and baseline IT loads. (freezer is suitable to run only when there is power during the day with minimal extra temperature variation.)
(I already happen to have a large UPS, which is the core of this system (I know about the issues with frequent cycling of lead-acid))

Pretty much the only cost in this case is the solar cells, and rather a lot of labour.

It's somewhat depressing that doing it 'properly' (neglecting shipping and VAT) http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/solar-panels-by-the-pallet - has 4.6kW of panels for 4430 pounds, add a grid tie inverter, http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/inverter-export/Xantrex-XW4024-230-50 - for a total of 7400, which is in the range that would make net-metering a viable alternative to FIT.

(net metering is simply driving the meter backwards, and getting paid the rate you'd normally be charged)

And yes, I fully understand why there are costs that are not reflected in the above, and concerns over the quality of the devices.

energysavingexp

rogerblack wrote: »

Thanks for the comments about MCS certification - what I'd expected.
To address the other points.
This is partly out of interest, rather than any financial incentive - however I happen to have the knowledge and a large slice of the materials - so why not?

On a financial matter - I've paid around 40p/W for some bare cells - and assembled a test panel which works well.

On planning permission - these are freestanding panels, so I understand there to be no planning permission required.

pvgis says ~880kWh/kw(p) for my location.
I plan on ~500W(p), so that's ~440kWh.
Regrettably much of this will be wasted, due to being unable to feed it into the grid, however over half of this - ~300kWh/year can be directly used on refrigeration, and baseline IT loads. (freezer is suitable to run only when there is power during the day with minimal extra temperature variation.)
(I already happen to have a large UPS, which is the core of this system (I know about the issues with frequent cycling of lead-acid))

Pretty much the only cost in this case is the solar cells, and rather a lot of labour.

It's somewhat depressing that doing it 'properly' (neglecting shipping and VAT) http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/solar-panels-by-the-pallet - has 4.6kW of panels for 4430 pounds, add a grid tie inverter, http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/inverter-export/Xantrex-XW4024-230-50 - for a total of 7400, which is in the range that would make net-metering a viable alternative to FIT.

(net metering is simply driving the meter backwards, and getting paid the rate you'd normally be charged)

And yes, I fully understand why there are costs that are not reflected in the above, and concerns over the quality of the devices.

as for the meter going backwards :
not all do some have a ratchet to stop them going back
its also illegal
mine was going backwards then the power company replaced it
i am still in dissagreement with them over the estimated charge they say the reading should be they want £300
so be carefull

zeupater

rogerblack wrote: »

Thanks for the comments about MCS certification - what I'd expected.
To address the other points.
This is partly out of interest, rather than any financial incentive - however I happen to have the knowledge and a large slice of the materials - so why not?

On a financial matter - I've paid around 40p/W for some bare cells - and assembled a test panel which works well.

On planning permission - these are freestanding panels, so I understand there to be no planning permission required.

pvgis says ~880kWh/kw(p) for my location.
I plan on ~500W(p), so that's ~440kWh.
Regrettably much of this will be wasted, due to being unable to feed it into the grid, however over half of this - ~300kWh/year can be directly used on refrigeration, and baseline IT loads. (freezer is suitable to run only when there is power during the day with minimal extra temperature variation.)
(I already happen to have a large UPS, which is the core of this system (I know about the issues with frequent cycling of lead-acid))

Pretty much the only cost in this case is the solar cells, and rather a lot of labour.

It's somewhat depressing that doing it 'properly' (neglecting shipping and VAT) http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/solar-panels-by-the-pallet - has 4.6kW of panels for 4430 pounds, add a grid tie inverter, http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/inverter-export/Xantrex-XW4024-230-50 - for a total of 7400, which is in the range that would make net-metering a viable alternative to FIT.

(net metering is simply driving the meter backwards, and getting paid the rate you'd normally be charged)

And yes, I fully understand why there are costs that are not reflected in the above, and concerns over the quality of the devices.

Hi

As I understand the above, you have cells which cost 40p/Wp and you have enough to make 500Wp of panels and no inverter so you wouldn't be able to connect to the grid, but you have a UPS and can operate a freezer etc on an off-grid basis ?

Okay, if thats all correct you must still need ....

~4sqm of glass cut to size, say £100
Materials for DIY frame, say £20 if wood, £100+ if aluminium profile
Cables etc, say £50

So the total cost of the panels is likely to be (500x.4)+100+20+50 = £370 if wood (£0.74/Wp) or £450 (+£80) if alumunium (£0.90/Wp).

You say that according to PVGIS the panels could produce 880kWh/kWp in your location, so your 500Wp could produce 440kWh, so an average of 1.2kWh/day which could support a baseload of 1200/24, so 50W Average. However, all of the energy will be passing into the UPS batteries and an inverter, so let's assume a 50% storage and conversion efficiency, so 600W/day or an average baseload of 24W, so a laptop could be powered on average. However, of the average 600W/day you could use you'll find that it breaks down to about 100W/day in December and 800W/day in June, so that sets a maximum baseload in Dec of 4W and June around 35W, so don't expect to guarantee to run a freezer in the summer, or a laptop in the winter ....

Regarding costs, I saw some end of line 220W polycrystalline Schueco panels being offered on clearance by a distributor at a little over £1/Wp recently .... .... and as mentioned in the post above(/below) ... net metering is a

HTH
Z

energysavingexp

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

As I understand the above, you have cells which cost 40p/Wp and you have enough to make 500Wp of panels and no inverter so you wouldn't be able to connect to the grid, but you have a UPS and can operate a freezer etc on an off-grid basis ?

Okay, if thats all correct you must still need ....

~4sqm of glass cut to size, say £100
Materials for DIY frame, say £20 if wood, £100+ if aluminium profile
Cables etc, say £50

So the total cost of the panels is likely to be (500x.4)+100+20+50 = £370 if wood (£0.74/Wp) or £450 (+£80) if alumunium (£0.90/Wp).

You say that according to PVGIS the panels could produce 880kWh/kWp in your location, so your 500Wp could produce 440kWh, so an average of 1.2kWh/day which could support a baseload of 1200/24, so 50W Average. However, all of the energy will be passing into the UPS batteries and an inverter, so let's assume a 50% storage and conversion efficiency, so 600W/day or an average baseload of 24W, so a laptop could be powered on average. However, of the average 600W/day you could use you'll find that it breaks down to about 100W/day in December and 800W/day in June, so that sets a maximum baseload in Dec of 4W and June around 35W, so don't expect to guarantee to run a freezer in the summer, or a laptop in the winter ....

And as mentioned by ... net metering is a

HTH
Z

also inverters dont like fridge/freezers or any thing with pumps or moters
as the start up load trips them
ive got a 1kw inverter it wont run the hoover / fridge /washer or lawn mower