Work medical retirement or dismissal uncertainty

Somerset

Really not sure if this is the right place for this but here goes.

My niece has now been off work over three months. Last year she had medical problems which resulted in two operations. Afterwards she developed depression which her doctor is prescribing drugs for. She is still suffering from depression. Obviously her employer's can't continue like this indefinately and she is expecting them to dismiss her. They have asked her GP for a report on her condition. Apparently when she spoke to her GP he said she would be medically retired. She asked me what this meant and I did a quick internet search and I've got the gist of it, there's a pension involved, but I'm no expert and would appreciate any information. The bit I'm really confused about is, why would any employer go that route ? they presumerably would have to be willing ? If you could legitimately dismiss someone without it costing anything, why would you offer medical retirement and fund a pension ?

I'm not going to tell her anything yet because I don't want to give incorrect information. She doesn't have a computer and tbh she's in no state to research this or even see CAB or anyone. She lives on her own and has basically 'holed up' because the depression has so knocked her down.

Andy_L

Somerset wrote:

The bit I'm really confused about is, why would any employer go that route ? they presumerably would have to be willing ? If you could legitimately dismiss someone without it costing anything, why would you offer medical retirement and fund a pension ?

Because the rules of the company's pension scheme may oblige them to pay it.

What she gets depends on her scheme rules, could vary from nothing to immediate payment of acrued pension without any reduction for taking it early.

Andy

dunstonh

Of course, that assumes there is a pension scheme. If there is, the scheme booklet may contain more information on this. The scheme administrators will offer information as well (but not advice).

Hopefully, it wont be a group personal pension as these contain no uplifts for ill health normally.

Somerset

Andy_L wrote:

Because the rules of the company's pension scheme may oblige them to pay it.
Andy

Thanks for the replies. There is a company scheme but I've no idea what the schems says. Next time I'm round at hers, I'll ask if she's got a copy.

This may sound weird but IF the scheme does cover something like depression, surely no-one would be able to say how long she'll suffer from it i.e. she might be ok in a month or it could be with ner the rest of her life. Also if the scheme did cover it, would the employer be obliged to go down this route ? I mean could they just 'not think of it' and follow the dismissal route ?

She hasn't really got anyone in her corner apart from me and O/H and the state she's in she'll just accept whatever she's told by employers.

tanith

Can I ask how old your niece is? Her GP must have good reason to assume that she would be medically retired...

I don't think her employer can just dismiss her for being off sick there are procedures they have to follow.. does she belong to a Union or is there a Union at her place of work, she could join for advice... You might find some useful advice on https://www.acas.org.uk .... She really should speak to her HR dept they should be able to offer her advice as to what is going to happen.....

Debt_Free_Chick

Somerset wrote:

Apparently when she spoke to her GP he said she would be medically retired.

This seems to be a term that only GPs use. From the employment point of view, dismissal is possible if she is incapable of doing the job she is employed to. However, the employer needs to be satisfied that she is incapable, hence they get medical reports. Even then, they cannot simply dismiss her. They have to comply with the regulations of the Disability Discrimination Act and, in particular, consider if they can make reasonable adjustments to her job/workplace in order to accommodate her.

It sounds unlikely, in this case, so dismissal may be the ultimate "solution".

Somerset wrote:

There is a company scheme but I've no idea what the schems says. Next time I'm round at hers, I'll ask if she's got a copy.

This may sound weird but IF the scheme does cover something like depression, surely no-one would be able to say how long she'll suffer from it i.e. she might be ok in a month or it could be with ner the rest of her life.

Dismissal on medical grounds does not automatically lead to payment of a pension. The pension scheme will be covered by completely separate rules and they will set out the circumstances in which an ill-health pension would be paid. As you have noted, some pension schemes will only pay an ill-health pension when the incapacity is "permanent" or likely to prevent someone from working for the remainder of their (working) life. It all depends on the rules of the scheme.

Somerset wrote:

Also if the scheme did cover it, would the employer be obliged to go down this route ? I mean could they just 'not think of it' and follow the dismissal route ?

Two completely separate issues. One is termination of employment by the employer - and they need to follow employment law & practice on that one.

If she is dismissed, she will then be entitled to her pension options. One option might be an ill-health pension and, if so, she will probably have to apply for it. If it looks like she may be dismissed, then she should apply for an ill-health pension. However, getting a pension on grounds of depression is very, very difficult. In general terms (and I know that different people have different degrees of depression) - but in general terms it is treatable and many people successfully hold down jobs whilst suffering with depression. It all depends on the diagnosis of her depression, but if the GP is of the opinion that she is likely to recover, then she will almost certainly not qualify for an ill-health pension - but it depends on the rules of the schem in question.

Somerset wrote:

She hasn't really got anyone in her corner apart from me and O/H and the state she's in she'll just accept whatever she's told by employers.

Her employer has a general duty of care towards her. Has she had no contact from HR at all?

What would she like to happen?

sashacat

It is usual for the employer to get a second opinion from a specialist in occupational health ( we always did when I was an employer) and certainly staff were medically retired on the grounds of severe depression....it depends on what her job with the employer entails. The employer will simply dismiss (lollowing employment law of course, and having regard to the disability discrimination act). If the employer is a good one then they may outline the pension options to your neice and it would be advisable for someone to go with her if she is so depressed that she won't cope (this is what usually happens). If she is in the union then ask them to help her apply for a her pension. PS in my experience penions are sometimes enhanced if the person is retired on medical grounds because ,when the pensions were set up it was expected that people who took medical retirement would not live for very long...that, of course has changed but, often the pension rules have not been updated.

Somerset

Thanks all

tanith - she's 45. There's no union and no HR as such. The company is, I understand a good one but old fashioned. It's got 20 odd ppl in the uk but is asset rich and is owned by a german company who are also in ten odd other countries. Point is, with only 20 ppl apparently the MD's secretary doubles as personnel. Niece said ( maybe over-sensitive ? ) that she had a 'pull yourself together' attitude.

Debt free - She wants to be well again and return to work full time. It's a traditional firm ie no work from home, no flexitime, no part time, no deviation from standard hours. From a bystanders point of view, I hope she'll be ok but I somehow think it'll be a long haul. She currently seems to be getting worse not better. Her GP has just upped her meds too.

sashacat - what you've said is encouraging. Are you saying that the dismissal has to happen before the pension discussions ? I don't really get that, if they've been dismissed how are they subsequently retired ? And if the employer doesn't discuss the pension options after dismissal does that mean it's a no -go ? As said above there's no union so gawd knows who'd she get to go with her, I'm willing but totally out of my depth so I'd be worse than useless. Is there an 'expert' that an individual could employ ? I'd cover the cost, I just don't know who she'd get ( legal or pensions person or what )

Thanks for all the help so far.

dunstonh

Is the pension a final salary scheme or money purchase?

Somerset

dunstonh

I don't know but I'll find out and get back to you.

Somerset

dunstonh

It's a 'final pay' scheme, which I assume means final salary scheme.