Full Time Holiday Entitlement

wardyb

I have worked shifts (mostly nights) in security for the past 4+ years. I receive 28 days holiday a year (including Bank Holidays). I work 12 hour shifts and work 56+ hours a week.

When I first started working for this company, I am almost certain I was receiving holiday pay equal to 12 hours pay per day. Over 2 years ago, I first noticed I was only being paid 8 hours per holiday day.

Could someone with some knowledge in holidays please help me out.
Thanks

In addition, my site supervisor receives 12 hours pay for holidays and he aslo doesn't pay £11.26 a month for a "Pay Scheme Administration Charge" which turned up out of nowhere about a year ago too!

anamenottaken

Are you working through some kind of agency or are you employed directly by the company which uses your services? It sounds like you work for an agency and your site supervisor may be directly employed.

getmore4less

What are your contractual hours.

Admin charge sounds like an ilegal deduction unless you agreed to it.

Why wait 2 years to question it?

SarEl

Hmmm - all of the above and also - are you sure that you are actually an employee? Because this sounds somewhat like you are being paid as a contractor - similar to the way that umbrella comapnies work?

paddedjohn

you are entitled to 28 days leave at whatever rate you are contracted for, ie if your contracted hours are mon-fri 8 hrs a day you get 28 days paid leave at 8hrs pay, if you have opted out of the 48hr week and work 12hrs a day as normal shifts (no overtime) then you should get 12hrs pay for 28 days, if you work more than 5 days a week you are not entitled to any more than the minimum 28days unless otherwise stated in your contract.
You must take a minimum of 4 weeks leave a year, you can only carry over 1.6 weeks to the next year with your employers permission.

Savvy_Sue

paddedjohn wrote: »

you are entitled to 28 days leave at whatever rate you are contracted for, ie if your contracted hours are mon-fri 8 hrs a day you get 28 days paid leave at 8hrs pay, if you have opted out of the 48hr week and work 12hrs a day as normal shifts (no overtime) then you should get 12hrs pay for 28 days, if you work more than 5 days a week you are not entitled to any more than the minimum 28days unless otherwise stated in your contract.

That 28 days may include Bank Holidays. If you don't have to work Bank Holidays, then that leaves 20 days to book when you like. If you do have to work BHs, then you have 28 days to book when you like.

paddedjohn wrote: »

You must take a minimum of 4 weeks leave a year, you can only carry over 1.6 weeks to the next year with your employers permission.

Is that right? I thought that you could legitimately only carry over leave if you had taken 5.6 weeks (including those bank holidays).

Our leave entitlement is 33 days, therefore we can carry forward up to 5 days, with our line manager's permission. We then have to take that by the end of April.

paddedjohn

I think its a new thing that has been introduced as i have only just found it on the gov website but they do seem contradict themselves in a further section depending how you read it, the later section says that you cant be paid for untaken leave but also says that it must be taken. I have filled in the questionaire on the gov website to ask for clarification but they dont reply to questions. See below.

Carrying over holidays

You do not have an automatic right to carry leave over. Of your 5.6 weeks entitlement, you must take the first four weeks of the leave, in the year that it is allocated. You can only carry forward the additional 1.6 weeks' leave if it remains untaken, with your employers permission or if it allowed by your employment contract.
If you have a leave entitlement more generous then the statutory minimum, your employer may allow you to carry over any of this additional entitlement if it remains untaken. However, this should be set out in your contract of employment.


Payment in lieu for holiday or 'buying out'

You are not allowed to exchange any untaken statutory holiday entitlement for pay. You must take all of your statutory holiday entitlement each year.

anamenottaken

paddedjohn wrote: »

I think its a new thing that has been introduced as i have only just found it on the gov website but they do seem contradict themselves in a further section depending how you read it, the later section says that you cant be paid for untaken leave but also says that it must be taken. I have filled in the questionaire on the gov website to ask for clarification but they dont reply to questions. See below.

Carrying over holidays

You do not have an automatic right to carry leave over. Of your 5.6 weeks entitlement, you must take the first four weeks of the leave, in the year that it is allocated. You can only carry forward the additional 1.6 weeks' leave if it remains untaken, with your employers permission or if it allowed by your employment contract.
If you have a leave entitlement more generous then the statutory minimum, your employer may allow you to carry over any of this additional entitlement if it remains untaken. However, this should be set out in your contract of employment.


Payment in lieu for holiday or 'buying out'

You are not allowed to exchange any untaken statutory holiday entitlement for pay. You must take all of your statutory holiday entitlement each year.

You can't be paid for any untaken statutory leave (the first 5.6 weeks). You can be paid for any untaken leave in excess of the 5.6 weeks. You have to note the difference between the two categories.

The 4 weeks "must" be taken but the additional 1.6 weeks can be given up (but not paid in lieu). The difference, I believe, arose when the extra 1.6 weeks were added (in at least two tranches, 4 days each). Originally the regulations dealt with 4 weeks (initially 3 weeks but the extra one always planned, I think) - and those 4 weeks have to be taken. The extra 1.6 weeks (8 days for a 5-day week person), were to cover the equivalence of the bank holidays which the original regulations had enabled employers to include in the 4 weeks but which had not been the intention of the legislators.

dharm999

I am guessing they have done the following. They will have said that your contracted hours are 8 hours a day, and the extra 4 hours you are doing are classified as overtime, so they wouldnt count towards your holiday entitlement. They should have written to you to tell you this. G4S do this, along with a number of other large security companies. The Pay Scheme Administration charge could be to do with a travel and subsistence scheme, where you get tax free expenses. they will share the tax and ni saving by putting through some kind of administration charge. At a net pay level you should be better off. Ask your payroll department what the impact on your net pay would be if opted out of the travel and subsistence scheme (assuming that is what the charge relates to).

wardyb

Sorry, I have took so long to reply. Forgot I had made the topic and only got reminded this evening after a discussion regarding the holidays. Since I can't multi-quote so many messages I will attempt to summarize the questions below:

Are you working through some kind of agency or are you employed directly by the company which uses your services? It sounds like you work for an agency and your site supervisor may be directly employed.
I work for a company who is providing security services to another company. I do not work for an agency.

What are your contractual hours.
Admin charge sounds like an ilegal deduction unless you agreed to it.
Why wait 2 years to question it?
Contractual hours are 54 per week
The admin charge was never agreed to and popped up out of nowhere a couple of years (probably longer) ago. Strangely it still appears on my August Pay Slip, however the charge is now £0.
I wait for 2 years to question it for the same reason that I am still in a dead end job after 5 years. I have no drive to do things any longer.

Hmmm - all of the above and also - are you sure that you are actually an employee? Because this sounds somewhat like you are being paid as a contractor - similar to the way that umbrella comapnies work?
I am pretty certain I am an employee. My employer has a yearly contract with the client. If my employer lose the contract, I am told I will move to another security company through TUPE. Not sure I answered that correctly, but I don't really understand what an umbrella company is, no have I recently seen my contract.

That 28 days may include Bank Holidays. If you don't have to work Bank Holidays, then that leaves 20 days to book when you like. If you do have to work BHs, then you have 28 days to book when you like.
I have to work bank holidays so I do have 28 days per year. It states this on my pay slip too.

You are not allowed to exchange any untaken statutory holiday entitlement for pay. You must take all of your statutory holiday entitlement each year.
I didn't even take 14 days holiday last year (july-july), the rest was taken as pay. Regardless, I received the same 8 hour pay for the actual holidays as I did with the ones that I cashed in.

I am guessing they have done the following. They will have said that your contracted hours are 8 hours a day, and the extra 4 hours you are doing are classified as overtime, so they wouldnt count towards your holiday entitlement. They should have written to you to tell you this. G4S do this, along with a number of other large security companies. The Pay Scheme Administration charge could be to do with a travel and subsistence scheme, where you get tax free expenses. they will share the tax and ni saving by putting through some kind of administration charge. At a net pay level you should be better off. Ask your payroll department what the impact on your net pay would be if opted out of the travel and subsistence scheme (assuming that is what the charge relates to).
My contracted hours are 54 per week! I don't have expenses and am not paid travel.


--

Ok a small update to the situation. I have had a message passed onto me by my site supervisor who spoke with the area manager on his monthly visit yesterday morning. Apparently, I have been put on an "old" pay scheme and I need to contact the control room to update my holidays to the 12 hour days. Now, I am going to make the call today, or after I receive some sound advice. I know they are clearly full of crap and any old pay scheme I might have been on was paying me 12 hours in the past anyway!

I am now sure that I will get the 12 hour holiday days now when I call, but how should I go about backdating what they owe me? I am fairly certain I am owed at least £1800 minus tax and I very much doubt they will be willing to part with that. Also, same with the Pay Scheme Admin Charge.

Thanks in advance

Jarndyce

Are you in a union? If not, join one. If there is a recognised union with your employer join that one - it may be GMB or Unite. if there is a recognised union they will have negotiated the pay structures so will know how it should be applied.

Otherwise, I would itemise your outstanding concerns and backpay claims in a letter or email and send to HR copy to your line manager.

If you do not get a satisfactory response you could, if you genuinely believe they are owed you, take a claim to an Employment Tribunal for unlawful deductions from pay. But you should try and sort it out internally first and take further advice before submitting a claim. If the deductions are ongoing there is no deadline for claiming as the deadline will always be three months from the last alleged unlawful deduction.