'Excess' Train Tickets

pestilence

Hello all, wonder if any of you may be able to help me with this query.

For the last couple of months I have been travelling by train on a Wednesday evening from Birmingham to Burton-on Trent before returning the next morning.

The first time I undertook the journey I bought an off-peak return ticket for £12.90, little realising that the return part would only be valid after 9.30 the next morning (I return at 7.20). Anyway, it all turned out okay, as the gentleman who checks tickets on the train of a morning issued me an 'excess' ticket for a pound, bringing my total expenditure to £13.90.

This continued for several weeks without a hitch,as the same bloke is checking tickets every Thursday morning, until last Thursday when inspectors were demanding tickets at Burton station before boarding. I was told by two of these inspectors that I needed to buy a single for £13 there and then, as the £1 excess ticket was not in fact valid and "the guy shouldn't have been doing it".

Now can this be correct? Obviously I'd rather pay £13.90 than £25.90, so was rather irked by this development, but I'm also just struggling to work out who is right and who is wrong.

I'm fully aware of the ambiguous nature of train fares and the complexity of the system but this eventuality certainly took me by surprise, seeing as the 'usual' inspector would have no reason to issue me with a £1 excess were he not allowed to, surely?

Any enlightenment would be welcome.......

Livingthedream

I think the Inspectors were wrong, I'm sure you can excess your return part of your Off Peak Return to an Anytime Return, unless there's some kind of restriction code preventing it, which unfortunately I can't check because I'm on the works computer.

If you want a quick answer post on this forum, if indeed the Inspectors were wrong they will tell you and also how to claim a refund;

http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=105

spiro

I think you should have paid the 'excess' at the ticket off before proceeding further to the 'ticket barrier'. Off Peak Return £12.90, Anytime Return (£13.90) is a same day return ticket so is not valid therefore what you needed was 2 singles and the morning single is £13. Therefore the guy who has been charging you a pound has always been wrong and the ticket inspectors are right.

Gordon_Hose

So you bought an off-peak ticket knowing the return part would be used during peak hours?

LOL!

Sounds like you got a decent ticket inspector (or one who didn't know the rules), and now he's not around you're moaning.

Either buy a peak ticket or travel off-peak.

geordieracer

I dont have avantix with me but from looking at crosscountry there doesnt seem available an 'open return' for this journey only an off peak return which does not allow you to travel before the time you state.

IMO the first guard was doing you a favour to upgrade you to the 'anytime day return' face for only a quid, but the second one actually sold you a new ticket because the ticket you had was not valid for the journey which you were travelling on and, rightly imo, did not excess your return portion as there isnt one available so you got the anytime ticket to get back.

But yeh hit over to LTD reccomendations as they mostly have the avantix there to check on it and its hard doing it from a website.

Livingthedream

Back again, after unrestricted access to the internet and a phone call or two, from the NRcoc's;

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such
as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can
be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train
Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you
are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price
paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that
train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and
publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply

Condition 2 is about holding a ticket and condition 4 penalty fares

So in my eyes the excess 'Off Peak return to Anytime Day Return' is valid, but again the amount of hums and hars I got over the phone was uncanny but as always happy to be proved wrong.

wealdroam

An Off Peak Return at £12.90 is only valid for return the next day after 09:30... as you say.

There is not an Anytime Return for that route, only an Anytime Day Return at £13.90.

It seems to me that the guy who was selling you the £1 excess had got it wrong or was doing you a favour.

I would've thought that the proper excess would be the cost of the Anytime Single minus half the cost of the Off Peak Return.
I.e. £13.00 - (£12.90/2) = £6.55.

But as others have said... head over to RailUK Forums. for the definitive answer.

geordieracer

Livingthedream wrote: »

Back again, after unrestricted access to the internet and a phone call or two, from the NRcoc's;



Condition 2 is about holding a ticket and condition 4 penalty fares

So in my eyes the excess 'Off Peak return to Anytime Day Return' is valid, but again the amount of hums and hars I got over the phone was uncanny but as always happy to be proved wrong.

The problem is with that LTD is that the anytime day return is a whole new ticket as there is not one that carries over to the next day so you cannot excess up to a ticket that doesnt exist as this is the return portion of the off peak return.

I believe Wealdroam has done the math correctly and the fare he shows is what shouldve been applied.

Livingthedream

But does it have to be a like for like excess ie Off Peak Return to Anytime Return or can it be like Condition 12 dictates 'lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train'

TBH this is how I see it and by the look of it so did the Train Manager who issued the excess, whether it right or wrong is another question.

Edit: just seen your post GR, defo now think this ones a question for the RailUK forum rather than this forum.

geordieracer

Livingthedream wrote: »

But does it have to be a like for like excess ie Off Peak Return to Anytime Return or can it be like Condition 12 dictates 'lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train'

TBH this is how I see it and by the look of it so did the Train Manager who issued the excess, whether it right or wrong is another question.

Thats a good point but the rule IMO is only available if there is a ticket that is valid which is comparable to the one you hold - as this is an open return off peak ticket, there is no valid ticket which is comparable as the anytime full price return is not valid.

pestilence

Thanks for all the help and opinions, think I will try the RailUK forum. Forgot to mention that on one occasion a lady charged me £6.00, so wealdroam could well be right, but I'm still a bit befuddled......