Public sector wellcome to the real world

Andy_L

dtsazza wrote: »

Kids definitely would pay for textbooks if you're offering a no-frills service (of course the school may rent them out directly and/or charge a moderate sum for access to a broader library). Likewise the classroom would not be something that the school would have to provide - you're buying education, not accomodation. Ditto IT or science equipment, if you want the teacher to share their knowledge of these subjects you either pay extra for the "school" to supply them, or you provide them yourself.

So what you're saying is the private sector can provide a years worth of education more cheaply than the public sector if they don't have to provide a classroom, or books, or educational material or pay NI?

Zelazny

dtsazza wrote: »

Again, these are all based on current assumptions of what it means to employ a teacher - not what you could do, if you were a value basic private sector school.

NI contributions may well be abolished for employers in such an important field as low-cost education (because ultimately these costs would be passed onto the consumer, so it's arguably a regressive tax). I don't think it's unimaginable that these would not apply in this scenario - but even if so, it's 2.5k.

£25k is the salary including pension contributions - either £25k + no contribs, or £24k with 4% contributions, it's broadly the same thing (albeit with slightly less flexibility in the latter case).

Kids definitely would pay for textbooks if you're offering a no-frills service (of course the school may rent them out directly and/or charge a moderate sum for access to a broader library). Likewise the classroom would not be something that the school would have to provide - you're buying education, not accomodation. Ditto IT or science equipment, if you want the teacher to share their knowledge of these subjects you either pay extra for the "school" to supply them, or you provide them yourself.

Don't be constrained by thinking about provision under the current structure, my thoughts are that this would be more along the lines of personal tutors. Imagine if you had the mindset of the no-frills airlines, and wanted to provide education in the cheapest way possible - what would that look like?

(Having said that I do think this is veering away from the original point, which was something along the lines that education could be provided under a private model. Whether it costs costs £1,500 pppa instead of £1,000 isn't really here or there.)

You know, that sounds an awful lot like the EasyJet model. It's all well and good saying you could educate a kid for only £1k per year, but if that doesn't include textbooks, classrooms and the like, and they all still have to be paid for, then the actual cost of education is more than that.

According to the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/12/school-expenditure-varies-widely) the average secondary school spent more than £5,200 per pupil last year, and the average primary school paid over £4,200 per pupil. The cheapest of all of them was £1,370.

Teacher salaries may be more than you expect as well. My sister-in-law has just qualified as a teacher, and her first paying job is at about £28k.

cyclonebri1

dtsazza wrote: »

I'm intrigued - did you ask for a pay rise (or rises) throughout this, and if so what was their response?

When you did leave, did they take someone on to do all those jobs at the same rate they were paying you, or did they have to take on multiple people/pay one guy £50k+? (Not that I'd blame you if you didn't keep conscientiously in touch.)

It sounds like a poorly-run company, though perhaps they really couldn't afford to pay competitive (UK) wages and stay ahead of the Asian companies, in which case they'd pretty much have to close.

Ok, did I ask or get a pay rise throughout this?, yes I did, although almost all the employees pay was frozen. A token gesture is my take on it.

In the 2 years after I left 2 different existing employees took over my core duties. I know you won't believe this but both suffered heart attacks within that time, (and survived), and now continue to work for the company on limited duties. Today the duties are shared over a wider spectrum of "willing " employees.

Poorly run company?, no not really, just an established family buisiness that, agreed, could not pay enough to stay ahead of the Indian/Chinese competition, now recently taken over by a major worldwide player in the same game.

I did volunteer for redundancy on 2 occaissions in the few years prior to this, result? "no sorry, you'll be the last man standing, please turn out the lights", (or words to that effect).

I hope this explains my perspective here and the reason I continue to watch and post in what must be the most contentious subject in recent MSE history

shorted

To get back to topic, surely the events of the past few days re: global stock-market upheaval,can only underline the benefits of a public sector pension immune from the vagaries,charges and fees the private sector are subjected to.
The public sector deal may not be as good as it once was, but it still looks pretty damn good to the rest of us.

Koicarp

I think the events of the last few days show that private sector pension schemes need to be protected from such massive dips in values of stocks and shares. Nothing more.

All, thanks for explaining my point to cyclonebri!
Dsatza (? spelling) it's all very well coming up with lovely ideas about what we could do. But we don't have a clean slate, we are where we are, and whilst change needs to be made currently your ideas a plain daft!

I said a similar thing to a computer boffin who was working on a new initiative back in 1998 when he lectured us during a (post grad) health informatics module. He was telling us how the nhs would soon be paper free, nurses and other profesionals would walk around with a handheld computer and notes would be instantly uploaded to the new nhs super computer which was his new project. I pointed out to him that the current model of health informatics, involved old ladies pushing shopping trollies full of notes around the hospital site, monday to friday (god help us if we need notes at the weekend). I suggested the super computer couldn't happen because he and the other boffins didn't know what we were starting with and so couldn't take us to the world of super computing.......

cyclonebri1

Koicarp wrote: »

I think the events of the last few days show that private sector pension schemes need to be protected from such massive dips in values of stocks and shares. Nothing more.

All, thanks for explaining my point to cyclonebri!

QUOTE]


!!!!!! what about the value of private pensions, please join the real world, this is not a reason to divide, it affects us all, wake up.

And he didn't, someone else did, but my comparison is still very very real.

dtsazza

I agree we should probably get back on topic, and you're right that I've mainly been discussing abstract theoretical stuff (on the basis that you need to decide what the desirable goal is first, then work out how to get there). Probably not the best place to do it, since it won't result in much, but at least it led to me reading a book and examining some of my beliefs that I wouldn't have otherwise done.

Koicarp wrote: »

I think the events of the last few days show that private sector pension schemes need to be protected from such massive dips in values of stocks and shares. Nothing more.

You can't have the highs without the lows - if schemes were protected from dips in share prices, it would only be fair that they were protected from rises in share prices too.

A pension that's invested in shares should take the full hit of any gains and losses. If you're suggesting that pension schemes should be protected from big losses in general then there is an argument to that, but it would mean sacrificing some potential gains too, by avoiding stock investments.

And in fact you can do exactly that by holding cash or money market funds - which is something that people's pensions should increasingly hold as they approach retirement age, to smooth out the ups and downs of the market.

Koicarp

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

Koicarp wrote: »

I think the events of the last few days show that private sector pension schemes need to be protected from such massive dips in values of stocks and shares. Nothing more.

All, thanks for explaining my point to cyclonebri!

QUOTE]
!!!!!! what about the value of private pensions, please join the real world, this is not a reason to divide, it affects us all, wake up.

And he didn't, someone else did, but my comparison is still very very real.

Not sure which planet you were on there Cyclone, your point seems to agree with mine?

You're right though this shouldn't divide, but it already has because the "I pay your wages brigade" have decided that we get too much in retirement when compared to what they themselves get.
Throughout Hutton's report he re-iterates that private pensions are currently often a poor deal, and that they should be improved to at least the levels that he wants to move public service pensions to. Unfortunately the "I pay your wages" brigade seem to think it easier to drag us into the !!!! with them, than to do something about the poor state of their own pensions.
As I keep on stating here, this is not about affordability.

cyclonebri1

Koicarp wrote: »

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

Not sure which planet you were on there Cyclone, your point seems to agree with mine?

You're right though this shouldn't divide, but it already has because the "I pay your wages brigade" have decided that we get too much in retirement when compared to what they themselves get.
Throughout Hutton's report he re-iterates that private pensions are currently often a poor deal, and that they should be improved to at least the levels that he wants to move public service pensions to. Unfortunately the "I pay your wages" brigade seem to think it easier to drag us into the !!!! with them, than to do something about the poor state of their own pensions.
As I keep on stating here, this is not about affordability.

Boy oh boy, you still simply do'nt get it, that's exactly what it's about.

Oh, and my feet unlike yours are still firmly embedded here on planet earth, (in the real world).

Koicarp

But I keep reading Hutton on my desktop, which points out that the NHS pension is in surplus, and getting cheaper, so how can it be about affordability?