self employed selling phoenix cards, got new job, self employed or employee?

thelurch

Hi all,

Please bear with me on this one and I appreciate any help you guys can offer:

My wife has sold phoenix cards for a couple of years, selling at events, fairs, and parties as a bit of extra income for which she had registered as self employed and does yearly tax returns.

Alongside this she had been working part time as a Nanny for a family as an employee with payslips/contract etc.

This job came to a natural end due to children starting school.

She then got another Nanny job but the family latched onto the fact she was already self employed and talked her into working for them but invoicing them every month for the hours she did.
Unfortunately, too late we realised that this then meant no paid holiday etc. This job didnt work out as we needed to know the same amount was being earnt each month.

She has now managed to get an admin job at a small family run childcare agency working 9 hours a week (3 days)

She will work regular hours, regular days and has her own desk just like in any other office situation.

Today they have been discussing details and have agreed hourly rate etc, but they have said as she is self employed, they will require her to invoice them for the hours she works just like the last job. Im not happy about this at all as she will be signing away her holiday pay etc again which we cannot afford to do.

The agency openly admit that she will be the first "outsider" working for them and the first person they are going to "employ"

Do they have any right to demand that she does it this way? as Im very keen for her to be "employed" and have a contract etc.

Having read a little on here I have read about "terms of business", is this something my wife would draw up for the employer to sign? bit like a contract in reverse?

And also I have seen mentioned that there is a list of HMRC occupations which are the only ones which qualify to be self employed? Is this right?

Sorry for the long story, but wanted to get the facts laid down!

Grateful for any advice

heretolearn_2

No, there isn't a list of self employed occupations.

However, the HMRC defines who is self employed and who is employed. For true self employment your wife must be able to work whatever times she wants, and would be able to arrange for someone else to do the work in her place sometimes - it's the service not the person that the company gets the use of. Generally speaking.

If you look on the HMRC site there is guidance there. She can try to insist on being employed, but it might just do her out of the work altogether.

Why doesn't she just stop mentioning her self employment to prospective employers before she starts work there? It's really none of their business.

Hammyman

thelurch wrote: »

She will work regular hours, regular days and has her own desk just like in any other office situation.

Today they have been discussing details and have agreed hourly rate etc, but they have said as she is self employed, they will require her to invoice them for the hours she works just like the last job. Im not happy about this at all as she will be signing away her holiday pay etc again which we cannot afford to do.

The agency openly admit that she will be the first "outsider" working for them and the first person they are going to "employ"

Do they have any right to demand that she does it this way? as Im very keen for her to be "employed" and have a contract etc.

I can guarantee it won't meet HMRC criteria for being self employed. If they do insist with this, she wants 25% more per hour than the standard PAYE rate to cover her holiday pay and to make sure they're not benefitting from the employers NI they're getting out of paying.

KiKi

thelurch wrote: »

She has now managed to get an admin job at a small family run childcare agency working 9 hours a week (3 days)

She will work regular hours, regular days and has her own desk just like in any other office situation.

Today they have been discussing details and have agreed hourly rate etc, but they have said as she is self employed, they will require her to invoice them for the hours she works just like the last job. Im not happy about this at all as she will be signing away her holiday pay etc again which we cannot afford to do.

This sounds like an 'employed' job to me - and I'm sure HMRC would agree (see their site for the guidance criteria). Your wife needs to explain to this company (because they genuinely may not know this) that she can be employed and self-employed at the same time. The idea that "as she is self-employed" is ludicrous. She is self-employed in her card business but can be employed by them, with no impact on their business whatsoever. As long as she completes her tax return, this has no bearing on how they manage her, from a financial and employment perspective.

The agency openly admit that she will be the first "outsider" working for them and the first person they are going to "employ"

Then it sounds very much like they don't realise she can be both - LOTS of people are. She needs to explain this.

She also needs to explain the HMRC criteria to them. They can get into a lot of trouble for not 'employing' someone on a contract if they should be. The reason for this is that some employers make people work as 'self-employed' because it means the employer doesn't have to pay tax, NI, or provide ANY employment protection at all. No holiday, no sick leave, no right to unfair dismissal, no right to a job...nothing.

I would try and sort out what sounds like a misunderstanding on their part before doing anything else.

In addition, if your wife is 'declaring' herself as self-employed to prospective employers, this may not help her. Employers who don't know the law may misunderstand that she can have an employed job, too.

HTH
KiKi