Wind turbines

zeupater

PeterZ wrote: »

This is the big problem with the UK and is why we will struggle to ever compete with the likes of China who will let nothing (including the environment and human rights) get in the way of progress.

I'm not saying we should take the same approach as China, but we really need a strong government to 'bang some heads' and allow some progress to be made.

This applies to all sorts of development in the UK, we are so tied up with red tape and policies that everything from starting a business to building a wind farm has become a nightmare.

I'll bet that those who protest about the newts and lessor spotted warbling tree huggers will not be so keen when their electric gets cut off because we couldn't build any new wind turbines, coal power stations, nuclear etc.

Couldn't agree more ......

celerity

Thanks for taking the time to respond Cardew.

Cardew wrote: »

I love the romantic notion of Britain completely powered by the Sun, Wind, Hydro and Tide. However as the cost is unaffordable, and as none of those sources can be guaranteed to be available when needed, other options will have to be considered.

Nuclear, Coal, Gas from new fields/shale etc are all possibilities and there are valid reasons why some people will object to each and every one of those proposed solutions.

Then our views aren't really all that opposed - I've said all along that wind in isolation isn't a panacea to our energy problems. I just want the legwork to be done so that we can utilise renewables in a half-decent way. I accept there will be cost inefficiencies doing this at first, but provided they get better over the next couple of decades I'm prepared to live with that.

My anti-renewable stance(as it has been termed above) is directed at those who view everything through green coloured spectacles. ‘Solar PV is great’ – ‘wind power is wonderful’ etc. – and not considering the practicalities.

To be fair, I don't recall any posts on this thread that fall into that category. The pro-renewable comments seem to at least have some thinking behind them (even if you may think that thinking is wooly )

The only really glib and unqualified post on this thread is the one that kicked off the main debate in the first place:

"[wind turbines are] very bad for the environment. Much worse that coal smoke belching power stations."

Other than that, it's a pretty good thread in my opinion.

[Cardew's diatribe against solar in the UK]

I won't dwell on this too much as it's a bit off-topic, suffice to say that the goal of encouraging domestic PV arrays is laudable in my opinion. The initial subsidies are too generous when viewed in isolation*, but in a handful of years time they will dip down to more reasonable sums. The hope is that by this time there will be sufficient market forces working so that the cost of an array like mine will cost significantly less. If in ten to twenty years time a typical family can install an array which provides say, half their electrical usage for a suitably cost-effective price then the FiT scheme will have been worth it. Especially once a) smart devices can more effectively take advantage of free energy during the day and b) more efficient panels come out which make my large 4kWp array look laughably poor.

/\dam

* I acknowledge some larger solar array operators are taking the p*** but that's life for you.

zeupater

Hi celerity

... I know relatively little about tidal energy, other than having an assumption that suitable sites would probably be quite limited? Or is that not the case? ...

Regarding the potential tidal capacity, the total capacity is massive .... the proposed Severn Barrage alone would produce somewhere in excess of 15TWh of power/annum. The problem with comparing this almost guaranteed generation with windfarms is that the windfarm is usually described at nameplate capacity (the equivalent of the kWp on pv) and generation is not predictable. A quick look at a map of the UK coastline in conjunction with tidal range and tide charts will give an idea of how the resource could be tapped and the geographical high tide timing lag be utilised.

... Although this does bring us full circle as the environmental impact of wind farms is quite low.

Agree, the environmental impact of wind farms is low .... however, what many fail to realise is the impact and perceived 'rural blight' of related supporting infrastructure ..... substations, transmission lines, roads to inaccessible areas .... and of course, flooded valleys to smooth the unpredictable nature of wind generation ..... this is no real issue for me, but there will be opponents ....

... To the extent that their estimated peak capacity for 2020 wasn't much different to today if I recall correctly.

This is a real issue .... if the peak capacity in 2020 is roughly the same as that of today there's absolutely no chance of meeting any targets .....

I think where we disagree the most is that I see long-term benefits and cost efficiencies to investing in renewables such as wind farms and associated infrastructure (and workforce jobs and skills) now, whereas you find that questionable. Is that a fair appraisal?

I don't think that there is any disagreement on investing in renewables. My only issue is the high reliance on investment in unpredictable resources when more targetted investment in schedulable renewable resources make much more sense. With windfarms you would need massive overcapacity to capture the available wind where & when it's blowing, with tide you know where it will be, how much it will generate, and when it will generate ... you know this today for tomorrow's generation, that for the day after, next Thursday, Christmas Day this year and the same for every year, year in, year out .......... Essentially, when the reliable renewable resources have been addressed, then, and only then, should the unreliable schemes be considered and valleys flooded.

If my property was 'off grid' in all respects the energy requirement would effectively be met the same way, something like (in order of installation priority) .....

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate
Reliable heat source .... Log Burner
Alternative heat source ... Solar Thermal / Passive gain.
Reliable energy source .... Water powered generation if available.
Solar PV
Energy Storage (batteries/mechanical)
Wind Power

..... looking at the issue on a national basis is simply a matter of scale ......

Z

Cardew

celerity wrote: »

Then our views aren't really all that opposed

I didn't say they were;)

I won't dwell on this too much as it's a bit off-topic, suffice to say that the goal of encouraging domestic PV arrays is laudable in my opinion. The initial subsidies are too generous when viewed in isolation*, but in a handful of years time they will dip down to more reasonable sums. The hope is that by this time there will be sufficient market forces working so that the cost of an array like mine will cost significantly less. If in ten to twenty years time a typical family can install an array which provides say, half their electrical usage for a suitably cost-effective price then the FiT scheme will have been worth it. Especially once a) smart devices can more effectively take advantage of free energy during the day and b) more efficient panels come out which make my large 4kWp array look laughably poor.

/\dam

* I acknowledge some larger solar array operators are taking the p*** but that's life for you.

I really must take issue with you on this paragraph(the only thing I disagree with in your posts)

Firstly a 'typical family'.

Families live in rented accommodation,

Families live in flats.

Families live in houses that are unsuitable for solar PV because of orientation, size of roof, shading by trees etc.

Those 'typical families' can't have solar.

As said above these people are paying for the massive subsidies that go to 'rich' people or venture capitalists.

What has the 'free energy' got to do with the situation?

If solar 'must' be included, then generate it as efficiently and cheaply as possible - in SW England or Spain etc etc. and the 'typical families' who can't have solar will pay less toward the levy for subsidies.

There isn't even an obligation on UK to use solar to meet its EU obligations. Wind would be far preferable, it is cheaper to generate and at least it can generate after dark.

celerity

zeupater wrote: »

Regarding the potential tidal capacity, the total capacity is massive .... the proposed Severn Barrage alone would produce somewhere in excess of 15TWh of power/annum.

I've done some reading about tidal barrage now and have to confess I am probably one of the animal hugging people that would object to this kind of plan - sorry .
It appears that messing about with dams affects the local eco-system, which in a general sense I would be opposed to (but would be open-minded depending on the site).

"Tidal stream" generation on the other hand looks promising, as does "Marine energy".

This is a real issue .... if the peak capacity in 2020 is roughly the same as that of today there's absolutely no chance of meeting any targets .....

I think that assumption included provision for charging 1.5 million electric cars though - so the lessened use of oil for petrol would have to be factored in as well.

If my property was 'off grid' in all respects the energy requirement would effectively be met the same way, something like (in order of installation priority) .....

"Insulate, Insulate, Insulate" - I've done my loft, will be doing cavity walls before next winter (I was worried about damp before, but have decided I'm going ahead anyway)

"Reliable heat source .... Log Burner" - one in my home office, one about to be installed in my lounge.

"Alternative heat source ... Solar Thermal / Passive gain." - I'm running out of southerly roof space for solar thermal, but I'm keeping an eye on ground source heat pump tech. That could be something I'd look into in future, especially if it could be cheaply but cleverly influenced by my solar output.

"Reliable energy source .... Water powered generation if available." - not on my property, sadly.

"Solar PV" - check

"Energy Storage (batteries/mechanical)" - I was thinking about this the other day. I could see potential in the future for using batteries for an off-grid power supply for part of my house, even if it's just for exterior lighting. If my hope about solar panels coming down in price comes true I could also see myself installing an extra (non FiT) array to help charge it.

Wind Power - I'm hoping for some genius to come up with a new design that works well in a 5m rural setting. We get loads of wind here, and it vexes me not to be able to harness it...

I should take the opportunity to thank you for your well thought out responses - you've made me rethink a fair few of my opinions, which is always a good thing.

/\dam

celerity

Cardew wrote: »

I really must take issue with you on this paragraph(the only thing I disagree with in your posts)

Firstly a 'typical family'.

Families live in rented accommodation,

Families live in flats.

Families live in houses that are unsuitable for solar PV because of orientation, size of roof, shading by trees etc.

Those 'typical families' can't have solar.

Fair enough, I'll retract what I said and rephrase to:

"A family living in a suitable property for solar PV, with average electrical energy requirements"

I suspect social bias may be affecting my (and possibly both) of our opinions on this. I've lived most of my life in areas that I would class as "British town house estates". In those kinds of houses a fair proportion would be suitable for solar PV.
If I'd lived in cities all my life I might have differing views.

Anyway, whilst acknowledging that bias, I still have to say that I think there would be enough suitable properties in the UK housing "typical" working families that solar micro-generation is a worthwhile cause.

I fully accept your differing point of view though, and I'm not actually saying I think you are definitely wrong.

What I can say is that I run a small business with two people in my (gadget filled) office, and my electricity meter is virtually static all day thanks to our solar panels. That may seem like a small thing (and it is, I'm not under any illusions!*), but it does give me a modicum of confidence about technology and the future.

/\dam

* And yes, I know this is thanks to the FiT - I've already said my hope is that in 10-20 years time prices will have dropped to levels where the FiT isn't necessary.

Cardew

celerity wrote: »

I still have to say that I think there would be enough suitable properties in the UK housing "typical" working families that solar micro-generation is a worthwhile cause.


.

Just one last retort and then drop the issue(in this thread)

It is undoubtedly a 'worthwhile cause' for some families.

However being melodramatic!! why should pensioners, living close to the breadline in a rented flat, pay extra on their electricity bill to fund the huge subsidies for people far better off than themselves!

What possible argument is there against producing solar as efficiently and cheaply as possible in SW UK?

Come the Revolution and you will be forced to march through the street carrying your PV panels;)

celerity

Cardew wrote: »

Just one last retort and then drop the issue(in this thread)Come the Revolution and you will be forced to march through the street carrying your PV panels;)

I fear you are right, and some of my friends have already said as much to me. I will try and take my generation spreadsheets to my grave with a smile on my face though!

/\dam

zeupater

celerity wrote: »

I've done some reading about tidal barrage now and have to confess I am probably one of the animal hugging people that would object to this kind of plan - sorry .
It appears that messing about with dams affects the local eco-system, which in a general sense I would be opposed to (but would be open-minded depending on the site) .....

..... "Tidal stream" generation on the other hand looks promising, as does "Marine energy" ....

.... "Insulate, Insulate, Insulate" - I've done my loft, will be doing cavity walls before next winter (I was worried about damp before, but have decided I'm going ahead anyway) ....

Hi

Tidal barrages shouldn't really have too great an effect on the ecology over the long term, well, nothing to the extent of what was pushed forward by those 'interested parties' against the Severn barrage. If you look at the impact of the barrage schemes which exist you'll find that most impact was within the construction phase, which mainly recovered soon after completion. If the flow through the turbines and any sluice gates is correctly balanced there should be very little environmental impact. It should also be remembered that barrage schemes would also include tidal lagoons, which could be designed to be extremely attractive from an ecological veiwpoint.

Tidal stream generation is great and far more reliable than wind, I'll support that .... all we need to do now is convince the residents of North Wales to allow the Menai straights to be filled with underwater windmills (watermills ?) which will be visible at low tide ...... (probably more NIMBYs)

On the insulation front .... keep going, forget what the guidelines say, if you have less than 0.5metre of insulation in the loft with a U-Value of >0.1 you're just playing at being green

HTH
Z

keith_r59

There is a new four part series starting on BBC2 tonight called Windfarm Wars. Worth a watch whether you are pro or anti this type of renewable energy.