Breaking the Law outside of work

ceridwen

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

So YOU know someone (set aside the employer / employee stance) who is breaking the law every day by driving when they shouldn't and you come on an internet forum to ask about it??? Go to the police or Crimestoppers - they will not have insurance for a start. What if they have an accident?

YOU have the knowledge so YOU need to do something about it.

Dilemma methinks...

Personally - I have always taken/will always take the view that whatever anyone does in their own time is totally none of the employers' business.

Therefore - the employer is not entitled to say anything about any lawbreaking of any description outside work.

However - having said that - I would personally report anyone for anything if I felt it was BOTH illegal and immoral (ie just as a private individual - rather than in the capacity of their employer).

If this person is putting others at risk in some way - ie there wouldnt be insurance for them to claim off if Mr Illegal continues to do this - then that is all the more reason to report this to the authorities (still as a private individual - and NOT as an employer iyswim).

I also have to admit that, if I were an employer and discovered someone was breaking the law in any way - even if it were outside work hours and didnt affect their job in any way - then I would be looking into "ways and means" to find an excuse to sack them or make them redundant - because of my personal view that I will do nothing to support a lawbreaker in any shape or form and would instantly break off any "relationship" I had with that person of any description (be it business or personal) - unless they had deliberately and openly broken the law on principle in a Good Cause of course (but that is a totally different "kettle of fish" anyway) - and not applicable to this person.

Savvy_Sue

How would it not reflect on the employer if the employee ends up in court? It can certainly blight your employment prospects if you end up in court as a defendant for anything.

Local radio ran some ads about kerb-crawling a while back. End up in court for that and the company could well take disciplinary action, even if it was outside work hours and in your own vehicle.

Contract may also say you have to tell your employer if you are arrested or investigated for anything.

SueC_2

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

How would it not reflect on the employer if the employee ends up in court?

I completely agree, and I would imagine that once the employee is caught, and in court, then there would be no question of whether it was fair or not to dismiss them.

But, with the crime undiscovered, there is nothing to reflect on the employer. IFYSWIM?

Interesting as it has been to read what everyone thinks they would do in this situation, no-one has actually answered my original questions:

If the employee were dismissed (without having been caught and prosecuted) would they potentially have a case for Unfair Dismissal?

Or, if the employer doesn't take disciplinary action and the employee is later caught and prosecuted, is there any risk of action against the employer?

scooby088

I would have thought that if the employee was continually be caught and kept in police cells over night then i would imagine time keeping would could be mentioned in any disciplinary but i doubt constantly breaking the law if not effecting the employer would cause much concern. I was once arrested on my employers premises in front of the operations director, to say the lease they were always coming up with something to pick at me since that happened.

hcb42

I don't think there is any risk of action against the employer, unless they knew about it, and continued to allow the employee to drive.

however, I dont think there is a strong case for unfair dismissal either (assuming they follow due process). It might be deemed a harsh decision, but that does not automatically make it unfair.

THe insurance industry would describe this kind of person as a moral hazard which is why obtaining insurance is so difficult after one is caught driving without insurance. It is, as I am sure you don't need to be told, a pretty unacceptable thing to do in society yet this person is doing it daily for their commute?

now SHOP this person to the police, before they kill or injure someone.

Tiddlywinks

SueC wrote: »

...But, with the crime undiscovered, there is nothing to reflect on the employer. IFYSWIM?

YOU know an offence is being committed so why haven't YOU reported it - then it would cease to be 'undiscovered'.

SueC_2

For the record, I don't even know who this person is, and it's not happening at the company I work at.

Now, caring, sharing, supportive MSE-ers, please can you stop the witch hunt that is based on your own speculations and interpretations and bears no connection to the questions that were originally asked.

Thanks.

thorsoak

SueC wrote: »

Hmmm, bit reluctant to go into too much detail, but let's just say it might be something similar to driving without a valid licence.

Driving is not part of their role at work, although they do drive to get into work. Since this has come to light they park round the corner and walk the last little bit so their vehicle is never on company premises.

If someone is driving without a valid licence, then that person will not be covered by motor insurance either. Therefore if that person has an accident which involves third parties, the third parties will be unable to claim against the un-licenced driver, thereby instituting what could be a long drawn-out process for the third party to obtain compensation for any accident.

And if the person has had a licence withdrawn for any reason - they may well be a danger to everybody else on the road.

Report him/her! By not parking in the car park after having been warned, s/he know that they are doing wrong - so it is a deliberate flaunting of the law.

podperson

As I mentioned if there is a clause in the contract that the employees behaviour must not reflect badly on the company then this would provide a valid reason for dismissal. Leaving it until (or if) the employee is actually arrested is not relevant as it is the behaviour that will be mentioned in the clause and acting in an illegal manner is a bad reflection of the company - why should they have to wait until it becomes 'public' and the person gets arrested. If the employee then tried to go for unfair dismissal the employer would need to show then they had reasonable proof then this 'unlawful' activity was going on - however I would have thought it extremely unlikely that the employee would go down this route as it would draw attention to the activity in the first place.

The EMPLOYER does not have a legal obligation to 'discipline' an employee for something they are doing outside of work. However if the employee is then arrested and charged with this and it comes to light that the individuals from the work place were aware of it and did not report it then there is a possibility this may be looked into - depending on the seriousness of the crime. This would be the individuals being looked into and not the company.

I don't understand why you think there is a witch hunt - you say in your OP that this is both a legal and moral dilemma and people have offered opinions on both sides.

SueC_2

podperson wrote: »

I don't understand why you think there is a witch hunt - you say in your OP that this is both a legal and moral dilemma and people have offered opinions on both sides.

I was referring to the number of comments where people are telling me that it is me who is in the wrong for not reporting this person, when in actual fact I am no more aware of who this person is than anyone who now 'knows' them from reading the information here.