'Is AV really so complex? Or is it just confusion marketing?' blog discussion

13839404143

Comments

  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    dtsazza wrote: »
    But there's an argument that tempers this somewhat, derived from Would AV have changed history/

    Lib Dem voters have historically tended to favour the overall victor (i.e. the party that won the most seats).
    That's an interesting link. Shame it hasn't got results for the 2010 election.
    But I think that your logic (not sure if the same logic is applied by the BBC in that link or not) is slightly flawed.
    I suspect that the second preferences of LibDem voters would be related to the proportions of those in their constituency that voted Conservative or Labour. E.g. in Richmond, Yorkshire LibDem second preferences would mainly go to the Tories while in East Ham LibDem second preferences would mainly go to Labour.

    On average this would, of course, give more second preferences to the party who won the election, but wouldn't win them any more seats.
  • mau408
    mau408 Posts: 178
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    Forumite
    edited 5 May 2011 at 9:17AM
    For some originality and everyday context - has anyone thought of trying to apply AV to football tables? It then makes AV look like a bit of a joke.

    Half of football matches mightn't be worth playing.
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    mau408 wrote: »
    For some originality and everyday context - has anyone thought of trying to apply AV to football tables? It then makes AV look like a bit of a joke.

    Half of football matches mightn't be worth playing.
    Not quite sure what you mean.
    Do you mean that the bottom placed team comes last. Then the rest of the table is recalculated based only on the results between the remaining 23 teams. Then the bottom of those teams comes second last and the remaining 22 teams are placed according to results between _them_, etc?
    Not unlike what happens when teams are equal on points in World Cup groups.

    I quite like that plan. Means Barnet wouldn't be in the relegation zone, which suits me!

    Though it's not really AV, is it. I mean no second preferences come in to play.

    So, what do you mean, mau408?
  • kermitfrog
    kermitfrog Posts: 1,089 Forumite
    He probably means that some football teams aren't worth watching or supporting and would be better off dead.
  • Amba_Gambla
    Amba_Gambla Posts: 12,107
    First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    kermitfrog wrote: »
    He probably means that some football teams aren't worth watching or supporting and would be better off dead.

    Like some politicians I know....
  • mau408
    mau408 Posts: 178
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    Forumite
    edited 5 May 2011 at 10:53PM
    Not quite sure what you mean.
    Do you mean that the bottom placed team comes last. Then the rest of the table is recalculated based only on the results between the remaining 23 teams. Then the bottom of those teams comes second last and the remaining 22 teams are placed according to results between _them_, etc?
    Not unlike what happens when teams are equal on points in World Cup groups.

    I quite like that plan. Means Barnet wouldn't be in the relegation zone, which suits me!

    Though it's not really AV, is it. I mean no second preferences come in to play.

    So, what do you mean, mau408?

    Exactly what I mean. Here's the example:

    If AV Decided Football Matches
    Round 1
    Each team plays each other
    Germany 1 1 Austria
    England 2 0 Scotland
    Scotland 0 0 Germany
    Austria 0 2 England
    Germany 3 0 England
    Austria 0 0 Scotland
    w d l f a pts
    England 2 0 1 4 3 6
    Germany 1 2 0 4 1 5
    Austria 0 2 1 1 3 2
    Scotland 0 2 1 0 2 2
    England do best over the whole campaign and win under first past the post.
    Scotland finish bottom and are eliminated.

    AV Round 2
    Scotland's Results are deleted
    Germany 1 1 Austria
    England 2 0 Scotland
    Scotland 0 0 Germany
    Austria 0 2 England
    Germany 3 0 England
    Austria 0 0 Scotland
    w d l f a pts
    Germany 1 1 0 4 1 4
    England 1 0 1 2 3 3
    Austria 0 1 1 1 3 1
    Scotland
    Germany Have Moved to first place under AV
    Austria Finish bottom and are eliminated

    If AV Decided Football Matches
    AV Round 3
    Austria's Results are deleted
    Germany 1 1 Austria
    England 2 0 Scotland
    Scotland 0 0 Germany
    Austria 0 2 England
    Germany 3 0 England
    Austria 0 0 Scotland
    w d l f a pts
    Germany 1 0 0 3 0 3
    England 0 0 1 0 3 0
    Austria
    Scotland

    Germany are the AV Winners
    5/6 Games did not matter in the end

    I like it how you assume I'm of the male variety kermitfrog!
    But laughed alot at amba_gamba although it seems a little harsh!

    My personal opinion is that some people are voting AV because people are calling them chicken for not wanting change. However I look at all sorts of sports tables and they are not really decided in this sort of way. I don't understand why a system such as political representation should be any different.
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    Yes, that's what I thought you meant. That's what I was trying to describe in my post.

    Not really AV, though, is it.
    And, like I said, it's pretty much how they decide things in the World Cup groups when teams finish on the same number of points.
  • mau408
    mau408 Posts: 178
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    Forumite
    edited 6 May 2011 at 10:12AM
    Not really AV, though, is it.

    Why is it not like AV? Germany were second preference and topped the table on second round of AV in the football example.
    I guess Accrington Stanley secured their position in the playoffs against Barnet.
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199
    Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker First Anniversary
    Forumite
    mau408 wrote: »
    Why is it not like AV? Germany were second preference and topped the table on second round of AV in the football example.
    I take your point.
    Yes, Germany were second preference to Scotland for half the points on offer in the Scotland/Germany match. In effect they get these extra points (by way of other teams losing points) when Scotland are eliminated.

    I think it's an interesting way to look at the table. I might try one when the season's finished to see how different it looks.
    (Martin would probably like it, too - see http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2009/10/19/the-premier-league-table-redesigned-making-mid-season-tables-more-effective/, though he never mentions this approach.)


    In some ways it is totally fair. Germany beat England, so why should England end up top instead of Germany.
    It isn't, really, deciding the winner based on one game. You have to do well in the other games to be up there in the running in the first place.
  • kermitfrog
    kermitfrog Posts: 1,089 Forumite
    It looks like it's going to be an overwhelming thumbs-down from the electorate for AV.

    I suppose the 'Yes' campaign will say that people didn't understand how simple the system is.

    Stupid people - not understanding something so simple!

    .
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 341.6K Banking & Borrowing
  • 249.7K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.1K Spending & Discounts
  • 233.7K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 605.7K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 172.4K Life & Family
  • 246.6K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.8K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards