SOA - need help

MoodyBlues

Hi all. In a bit of a hole and need advice. We have about £32000 worth of debt, are £127 worse off a month than we were this time last year and have had a number of large unexpected bills to pay in the last few years. Any advice at all would be appreciated.
It also seems like this computer is on its last legs (it keeps crashing) and as you can see we can't afford a new one!! I had written out a huge post before explaining everything. Doubt I'll be able to write what I did before.
Anyway...the satellite cost covers free calls to my wifes friends and family overseas (and this is actually saving us a ton of money). In addition to this the threshold has been lowered for the student loan deferment so we have had to start paying back the student loan earlier than I had anticipated.


Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet

Household Information
Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 0
Number of cars owned.................... 0

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 1497
Partners monthly income after tax....... 500
Benefits................................ 0
Other income............................ 10
Total monthly income.................... 2007

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 0
Secured/HP loan repayments.............. 0
Rent.................................... 800
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 110
Electricity............................. 30
Gas..................................... 30
Oil..................................... 0
Water rates............................. 23
Mobile phone............................ 42
TV Licence.............................. 12
Satellite+ Telephone+ Internet.......... 55
Groceries etc. ......................... 300
Clothing................................ 0
Petrol/diesel........................... 0
Road tax................................ 0
Car Insurance........................... 0
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 0
Car parking............................. 0
Other travel............................ 0
Childcare/nursery....................... 0
Other child related expenses............ 0
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 0
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 27
Buildings insurance..................... 0
Contents insurance...................... 16
Life assurance ......................... 0
Other insurance......................... 0
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 0
Haircuts................................ 0
Entertainment........................... 0
Holiday................................. 0
Emergency fund.......................... 0
Total monthly expenses.................. 1445


Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 0
Shares and bonds........................ 10
Car(s).................................. 0
Other assets............................ 0
Total Assets............................ 10

No Secured nor Hire Purchase Debts

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Ll1............................10411.....220.......24.9
Hf.............................7521......75.21.....6.95
Bc.............................1604......37........6.95
Overdraft......................1500......0.........0
Loan...........................3450......194.......7.9
SLoan..........................7441......166.......4.4
Total unsecured debts..........31927.....692.21....-


Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 2,007
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 1,445
Available for debt repayments........... 562
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 692.21
Amount short for making debt repayments. -130.21

Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 10
Total HP & Secured debt................. -0
Total Unsecured debt.................... -31,927
Net Assets.............................. -31,917

Created using the SOA calculator at www.makesenseofcards.com.
Reproduced on Moneysavingexpert with permission, using Firefox browser.

originalmiscellany

Hi there - I'm not an expert in debt and SOA, but I just wanted to say:
a) You're aware of the fact you're in debt and are trying to get out of it
b) You've cleared some debt already - (Lloyds) so are being proactive about this too.

Just to encourage you and hope the advice given here can help life you out of this situation.

Tixy

Hi

MoodyBlues wrote: »

Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet

Household Information
Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 0
Number of cars owned.................... 0

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 1497
Partners monthly income after tax....... 500 can partner increase their hours or income? are either of you entitled to working tax credits?
Benefits................................ 0
Other income............................ 10
Total monthly income.................... 2007

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 0
Secured/HP loan repayments.............. 0
Rent.................................... 800 is this a good deal for where you live? any chance of moving anywhere cheaper?
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 110
Electricity............................. 30 have you recently checked you are with the cheapest supplier/best tariff for this & gas?
Gas..................................... 30
Oil..................................... 0
Water rates............................. 23
Mobile phone............................ 42
TV Licence.............................. 12
Satellite+ Telephone+ Internet.......... 55 this still looks quite high - can she not use skype for the overseas calls for free? could you get rid of the paid tv from this?
Groceries etc. ......................... 300 this is very high for 2 people, there are people on here who feed a family of 5 and pets for less than this. You should be able to knock at least £100 off this if not halve it. Might be worth looking onthe old style board and at the grocery challenge on there. Try things like the drop a brand challenge and meal planning for the week before you head to the shops.
Clothing................................ 0 is this realistic?
Petrol/diesel........................... 0
Road tax................................ 0
Car Insurance........................... 0
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 0
Car parking............................. 0
Other travel............................ 0
Childcare/nursery....................... 0
Other child related expenses............ 0
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 0
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 27
Buildings insurance..................... 0
Contents insurance...................... 16 do you shop around at renewal time?
Life assurance ......................... 0
Other insurance......................... 0
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 0 is this realistic?
Haircuts................................ 0 and this?
Entertainment........................... 0 and this?
Holiday................................. 0
Emergency fund.......................... 0 what big bills have you had recently? are you certain you have accounted for everything similar in your budget?
Total monthly expenses.................. 1445


Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 0
Shares and bonds........................ 10
Car(s).................................. 0
Other assets............................ 0
Total Assets............................ 10

No Secured nor Hire Purchase Debts

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Ll1............................10411.....220.......24.9
Hf.............................7521......75.21.....6.95
Bc.............................1604......37........6.95
Overdraft......................1500......0.........0
Loan...........................3450......194.......7.9
SLoan..........................7441......166.......4.4
Total unsecured debts..........31927.....692.21....-


Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 2,007
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 1,445
Available for debt repayments........... 562
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 692.21
Amount short for making debt repayments. -130.21 I would think you may be able to cut back groceries to make up this shortfall, but if you could increase your incomes somehow then you might have some surplus available to actually start overpaying the debts and reducing the balances a bit more.

Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 10
Total HP & Secured debt................. -0
Total Unsecured debt.................... -31,927
Net Assets.............................. -31,917

Created using the SOA calculator at www.makesenseofcards.com.
Reproduced on Moneysavingexpert with permission, using Firefox browser.

A few comments on your figures - maybe some of them are things you could change?

MoodyBlues

Thanks originalmiscellany I need a bit of encouragement .
Tixy thanks for the advice. It's a bit hard for us to reduce the food/ groceries costs based on my dietary needs. We cut it down to £240 last month but I don't think it is maintainable (it'll have to be). Additionally the TV license is paid til October, and I have already set aside money for various things in the coming month so will probably be able to pump some of that cash into the high APR card. Just means jiggling things about a bit. I think I am beyond the point where I can reject the rate jacking. I definitely need to find a way to up my earnings though.
Some of the things may not be realistic, but we can't really afford to buy gifts and have haircuts etc. Usually end up cutting our own hair. No emergency fund, we just tend to get more in debt as things crop up. The rent is very good for the area we are in.
We are on the cheapest tariff for gas and electric in our area but could save some by doing it monthly by online direct debit. I can't really afford to do this yet though as I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. I think once the high APR card is down a little more I'll be able to actually afford the outgoings each month.

I am just glad my OH is so understanding about all this. It's a struggle for me.

Edit: just checked about working tax credits and neither of us would qualify.

Hannah_10

Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet

Household Information
Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 0
Number of cars owned.................... 0

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 1497
Partners monthly income after tax....... 500 << Any chance she can increase this? Overtime? 2nd job? Become the Avon lady?
Benefits................................ 0
Other income............................ 10 << What is this?
Total monthly income.................... 2007

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 0
Secured/HP loan repayments.............. 0
Rent.................................... 800 << This is quite a bit, have you considered moving somewhere cheaper, or subletting a spare bedroom (most landlords allow it)?
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 110
Electricity............................. 30
Gas..................................... 30 >> Not bad, but no harm in trying out uswitch.co.uk anyway, just to make sure.
Oil..................................... 0
Water rates............................. 23 << In rented accom you are probably not going to be allowed to have a meter put in if you don't already have one. If you do have one then there are tips online how to reduce.
Mobile phone............................ 42 << You could probably cut back here if you wanted to. Make more calls from the house phone or from work if that's allowed and send free texts (even PAYG plans have these now) instead of calling mobiles.
TV Licence.............................. 12
Satellite+ Telephone+ Internet.......... 55 << For all 3 this could be worse, if it's saving you money on calls then so be it. Check it through uswitch though anyway.
Groceries etc. ......................... 300 << Could be lowered to £200-£250
Clothing................................ 0 << That's usustainable, you will need a figure here at some time.
Petrol/diesel........................... 0
Road tax................................ 0
Car Insurance........................... 0
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 0
Car parking............................. 0
Other travel............................ 0 << No car but you never use public transport either? Not even occassionally?
Childcare/nursery....................... 0
Other child related expenses............ 0
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable.
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 27 << That seems high, is it insurance or bills? For what animals?
Buildings insurance..................... 0
Contents insurance...................... 16 << This could possibly be lower, see main site.
Life assurance ......................... 0
Other insurance......................... 0
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable.
Haircuts................................ 0 << Unless you are both Happy To Be Hairy this is also likely to be unsustainable.
Entertainment........................... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable.
Holiday................................. 0
Emergency fund.......................... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable, if only because stuff tends to happen when you can't afford it. The cooker might break down and need fixing or you might lose your wallet with £100 in it. "Stuff" happens to everyone sooner or later.
Total monthly expenses.................. 1445


Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 0
Shares and bonds........................ 10 << Only a tenner's worth of shares/bonds in total?
Car(s).................................. 0
Other assets............................ 0
Total Assets............................ 10

No Secured nor Hire Purchase Debts

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Ll1............................10411.....220.......24.9
Loan...........................3450......194.......7.9
Hf.............................7521......75.21.....6.95
Bc.............................1604......37........6.95
SLoan..........................7441......166.......4.4
Overdraft......................1500......0.........0
I've put these in priority order, but double check that overdraft. It could really be that you are paying 0% on it, but that'd be unusual. You will also be paying bank fees to have the kind of account that even has an overdraft.
Total unsecured debts..........31927.....692.21....-


Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 2,007
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 1,445
Available for debt repayments........... 562 << Ok so on the bright side, you have something with which to pay.
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 692.21
Amount short for making debt repayments. -130.21

Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 10
Total HP & Secured debt................. -0
Total Unsecured debt.................... -31,927
Net Assets.............................. -31,917


There is plenty of potential for adjustment in this SOA. I see scope to both increase your income and decrease your expenditure. I also see gaps though, quite a few, like clothing and bank charges. £32k is a lot of money and I suspect you don't really see anything like £562 left over a month, and you certainly wont once your SOA is updated to include anything you've missed out. How did you accrue this debt? One dire event or living above your means? It's important to understand what led you into debt to keep yourself out of it in future. I think with such a high debt figure I will wait for you to answer those questions before I jump in and say "oh yes, this is what you should do".

Tixy

MoodyBlues wrote: »

No emergency fund, we just tend to get more in debt as things crop up.

I know you know this - but you do see that this is unsustainable don't you? You need to have a budget that works and accounts for everything as much as you can. Your debts have increased quite a whack in a year and you need do change something as its likely you will simply run out of credit at some point and end up really stuck.

I'm not trying to have a go at you or be negative unnecessarily but you really need to be making some serious changes to your finances. Ideally increasing your income looks the way to go.

MoodyBlues

Hannah_10 wrote: »

Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet

Household Information
Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 0
Number of cars owned.................... 0

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 1497
Partners monthly income after tax....... 500 << Any chance she can increase this? Overtime? 2nd job? Become the Avon lady? Something we can look into but most likely I will have to fins a second job
Benefits................................ 0
Other income............................ 10 << What is this? £5 a month on two Halifax bank accounts.
Total monthly income.................... 2007

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 0
Secured/HP loan repayments.............. 0
Rent.................................... 800 << This is quite a bit, have you considered moving somewhere cheaper, or subletting a spare bedroom (most landlords allow it)? Can't sublet - not enough room really. Could possibly move somewhere else but would have to find money for that.
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 110
Electricity............................. 30
Gas..................................... 30 >> Not bad, but no harm in trying out uswitch.co.uk anyway, just to make sure. Will do this
Oil..................................... 0
Water rates............................. 23 << In rented accom you are probably not going to be allowed to have a meter put in if you don't already have one. If you do have one then there are tips online how to reduce. No meter plus landlord feels it would lower the value of his property
Mobile phone............................ 42 << You could probably cut back here if you wanted to. Make more calls from the house phone or from work if that's allowed and send free texts (even PAYG plans have these now) instead of calling mobiles. Work won't really allow calls, additionally when I need to use my phone it's during the day (I use it for work calls too). I don't have to pay for any calls, get enough texts/ unlimited broadband. Best deal for me. On top of that that's for two phones. I was paying over that on PAYG for just one phone a few years ago due to my high call volume.
TV Licence.............................. 12
Satellite+ Telephone+ Internet.......... 55 << For all 3 this could be worse, if it's saving you money on calls then so be it. Check it through uswitch though anyway. Will do this
Groceries etc. ......................... 300 << Could be lowered to £200-£250 Will definitely try this
Clothing................................ 0 << That's usustainable, you will need a figure here at some time. We haven't bought any new clothes in a number of years. Unsustainable for the long term but no choice for the short term
Petrol/diesel........................... 0
Road tax................................ 0
Car Insurance........................... 0
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 0
Car parking............................. 0
Other travel............................ 0 << No car but you never use public transport either? Not even occassionally? Prepaid travel card for year
Childcare/nursery....................... 0
Other child related expenses............ 0
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable. Unsustainable for sure but really can't afford as regular medicines as I need. Still do dentist trips once a year but that's all we can afford.
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 27 << That seems high, is it insurance or bills? For what animals? Got into massive debt a few years ago to save our pet. In total this cost us over £2k. We had no insurance at the time. Premiums are high because of this and ultimately it has probably saved us money over the last few years
Buildings insurance..................... 0
Contents insurance...................... 16 << This could possibly be lower, see main site. Need to look into this
Life assurance ......................... 0
Other insurance......................... 0
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable. Probably unsustainable. Tight for sure but we make most of our gifts.
Haircuts................................ 0 << Unless you are both Happy To Be Hairy this is also likely to be unsustainable. Cut our own hair
Entertainment........................... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable. Go for walks. Read library books. Watch TV etc
Holiday................................. 0
Emergency fund.......................... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable, if only because stuff tends to happen when you can't afford it. The cooker might break down and need fixing or you might lose your wallet with £100 in it. "Stuff" happens to everyone sooner or later. Better for money to go onto the debt no way I can set aside this money. You are absolutely right about stuff happening to everyone but really can't afford it right now.
Total monthly expenses.................. 1445


Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 0
Shares and bonds........................ 10 << Only a tenner's worth of shares/bonds in total?
Car(s).................................. 0
Other assets............................ 0
Total Assets............................ 10

No Secured nor Hire Purchase Debts

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Ll1............................10411.....220.......24.9
Loan...........................3450......194.......7.9
Hf.............................7521......75.21.....6.95
Bc.............................1604......37........6.95
SLoan..........................7441......166.......4.4
Overdraft......................1500......0.........0
I've put these in priority order, but double check that overdraft. It could really be that you are paying 0% on it, but that'd be unusual. You will also be paying bank fees to have the kind of account that even has an overdraft.
Total unsecured debts..........31927.....692.21....-


Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 2,007
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 1,445
Available for debt repayments........... 562 << Ok so on the bright side, you have something with which to pay.
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 692.21
Amount short for making debt repayments. -130.21

Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 10
Total HP & Secured debt................. -0
Total Unsecured debt.................... -31,927
Net Assets.............................. -31,917


There is plenty of potential for adjustment in this SOA. I see scope to both increase your income and decrease your expenditure. I also see gaps though, quite a few, like clothing and bank charges. £32k is a lot of money and I suspect you don't really see anything like £562 left over a month, and you certainly wont once your SOA is updated to include anything you've missed out. How did you accrue this debt? One dire event or living above your means? It's important to understand what led you into debt to keep yourself out of it in future. I think with such a high debt figure I will wait for you to answer those questions before I jump in and say "oh yes, this is what you should do".

Hannah_10 thanks for your advice.I have made notes on your comments. We have already had several dire events happen in the last number of years. My Dad had a heart attack a number of years ago and was stuck in hospital recovering for a long time. Meanwhile we had to pay the rent for my parents as well as our own etc which ran up most of the debt. They are now claiming their pension etc as they should have been and have the correct pension credits, getting the correct help with rent etc. Another 2k was run up with the cat. My mother in law died at the end of last year so we also had to pay towards funeral costs.
I was also in debt when I left Uni 10 years ago but it wasn't as great as this and it took a number of years to find a decent job. Meanwhile we were living on my low income and I knew little about the benefits I should have been getting at the time. Not to mention I was unemployed for about 8 months and not claiming benefit/ living with parents and living off my OH's income.
The overdraft will start to have fees up to a maximum of £5 a month. So at the moment its by far the cheapest debt apart from the student loan. It was 0% but the year is up now so they will be charging soon enough.

I need at least £692 to cover the debts but only have £562 to go towards it.

MoodyBlues

Tixy wrote: »

I know you know this - but you do see that this is unsustainable don't you? You need to have a budget that works and accounts for everything as much as you can. Your debts have increased quite a whack in a year and you need do change something as its likely you will simply run out of credit at some point and end up really stuck.

I'm not trying to have a go at you or be negative unnecessarily but you really need to be making some serious changes to your finances. Ideally increasing your income looks the way to go.

You are not being negative. It's realistic. We were on top of things at one point and overpaying the high APR card, everything was rosy - in fact at one point the Lloyds high APR card was down to £6k. Unfortunately we were set back by emergency problems (flights to see her parents/ funeral costs).
It always seems like one step forward and two steps back.

Hannah_10

Ok, having read your comments can you see that you are being not only unsustainable but a bit fatalistic? This one in particular stood out: Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 0 << Also likely to be unsustainable. Unsustainable for sure but really can't afford as regular medicines as I need. Still do dentist trips once a year but that's all we can afford.

You came here because you know you have a problem and can't keep juggling disasters. The way you are doing things can not carry on. I found that personally I was so fully in disaster mode that when the crisis abated I then approached my debt problem like a crisis and I suspect you are doing the same.

Replacing worn out clothes, getting your prescriptions and so on are not optional. In understanding debt it is important to recognise that there are bona fide living expenses (like food, electric, medicine), then there are priority debts (mortgage, council tax, gas arrears), then there are secured debts (HP cars etc) and at the bottom of the pile, getting paid out last, are unsecured debts. You are going at this from the wrong angle. You need to stop a minute and go back and do your SOA again.

This time include your prepaid travel card as a monthly expense, your medical and dental fees, a sensible figure for clothing and put in a tenner or twenty quid for entertainment, to not be able to even hire a DVD is just too miserable for words over any period of time and your debt problems are a long term effort- not something you should be having an OMFG type panic over. Have a cup of tea, breathe, and show us what the new, sustainable and realistic SOA would look like. One which takes account of everything. It will look a bit "worse" than your original SOA to start with, but your original is not a document on which we can base a solution. Show me one on which we can.

Hannah_10

Oh and... I would also like to see a sensible figure for emergencies on the new SOA. Something you feel is realistic to your life and the liklihood of another disaster, like a sick cat or having to fly the wife back home again.

MoodyBlues

Hannah_10, I have changed a few things. My pay is actually a bit higher but since I paid for the travelcard with a 0% loan from work it has to be deducted from the pay each month.
Additionally we haven't rented a DVD in a year or so (we have plenty of entertainment with the TV, computer games, and reading) but I have put £10 there (although we don't actually use it). Clothing we haven't bought for years. We have a lot of clothes, and I still wear clothes that I have bought from the 1980s . TV license is covered til October. Medical put £15 although to be honest I only get my prescriptions once every 3 months and we only have check ups at the dentist once a year, but I guess setting this aside for that would make things comfortable.
Additionally to be comfortable for emergencies £60 should be set aside a month for that.

As you can see none of this is workable.

Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet

Household Information
Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 0
Number of cars owned.................... 0

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 1626
Partners monthly income after tax....... 500
Benefits................................ 0
Other income............................ 0
Total monthly income.................... 2126

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 0
Secured/HP loan repayments.............. 0
Rent.................................... 800
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 110
Electricity............................. 30
Gas..................................... 30
Oil..................................... 0
Water rates............................. 23
Telephone (land line)................... 0
Mobile phone............................ 42
TV Licence.............................. 12
Satellite/Cable TV...................... 55
Internet Services....................... 0
Groceries etc. ......................... 300
Clothing................................ 10
Petrol/diesel........................... 0
Road tax................................ 0
Car Insurance........................... 0
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 0
Car parking............................. 0
Other travel............................ 138.8
Childcare/nursery....................... 0
Other child related expenses............ 0
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 15
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 27
Buildings insurance..................... 0
Contents insurance...................... 16
Life assurance ......................... 0
Other insurance......................... 0
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 10
Haircuts................................ 0
Entertainment........................... 10
Holiday................................. 0
Emergency fund.......................... 60
Total monthly expenses.................. 1688.8


Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 0
Shares and bonds........................ 10
Car(s).................................. 0
Other assets............................ 0
Total Assets............................ 10

No Secured nor Hire Purchase Debts

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Ll1............................10411.....220.......24.9
Loan...........................3450......194.......7.9
Hf.............................7521......75.21.....6.95
Overdraft......................1500......0.........0
Sloan..........................7441......166.......4.4
Bc.............................1604......37........6.95
Total unsecured debts..........31927.....692.21....-


Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 2,126
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 1,688.8
Available for debt repayments........... 437.2
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 692.21
Amount short for making debt repayments. -255.01

Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 10
Total HP & Secured debt................. -0
Total Unsecured debt.................... -31,927
Net Assets.............................. -31,917

Created using the SOA calculator at www.makesenseofcards.com.
Reproduced on Moneysavingexpert with permission, using Firefox browser.