Mega sheds of Continuously-housed cows

lostinrates

Penelope_Penguin wrote: »

As this is more of an ethical thread, I'll move it to the Green Board later.

Hi, Martin’s asked me to post this in these circumstances: I’ve asked Board Guides to move threads if they’ll receive a better response elsewhere (please see this rule) so this post/thread has been moved to another board, where it should get more replies. If you have any questions about this policy please email f[EMAIL="forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com"]orumteam@moneysavingexpert.com[/EMAIL].

I agree...but old style and groceries often talk about the ''cheapest'' and often this is forgotten. a reminder that cheap products contain things for cheap sources perhaps?

A signature note might be an idea for those passionate about this.

Its an interesting year to have this dscussion in. A dry winter and autumn meant that cows came in late and are ut early around us.

Also worth notng organic just means organic. I can't think of a dairy herd, organic or otherwise, that doesn't come in to be barn kept over winter now. That's not necessarily DREADFUL, and you have to think of the ground as well, but handling has to be fair, space has to be fair, feeding has to be appropriate. The better standards we demand in all of this the more we have to pay.

re lack of movement...movement is essential for most animals like this. Their distal limbs are muscle free and movement is important in circulation and comfort. Not necessarily pain....I think of it as how your ankles feel at the end of a busy day, and our muscles minimise that effect in comparison to something with no muscles in the distal limb. It doesn't have to be on grass, but it should be provided for comfort, and milling in a barn is a better compromise than standing in a stall. Stalling has also been shown to result in stereotypical behaviour.

marmiterulesok

Go for it!I am right behind you.

This proposition is obscene and shameful.Animals are not objects,and have the right to move and feed freely.

RAS

I keep harping on about the book, but read Simon fairlie Meat the benign extravagence. He has a whole section on the dairy industry (not least because the source of most beeves is the dairy industry).

These cows consume vast quantities of high value feed so that they can produce mega quantities of milk each. There are very very few dairies left so milk all goes to a very few sites (there are none in Wales at all) before being sent back out to supermarkets via their sheds.

Animals that are quite capable of producing smaller amounts of milk locally, on low rations, where their dung is much needed (there are whole sections the nutrient cycles) are made redundant.

Instead we have consumers of vast amounts of oil-dependent foodstuffs, which strip valuable nutrients from their place of production, producing vast amounts of unusable slurry (because parlours are washed out by high pressure hose) which has to be dealt with a vast cost and causes nutrient heaps (contamination) in inappropriate places. So we can truck the milk thousands of miles.

cooking-mama

Thanks budgeteer for bringing this to our attention,its because of cruel conditions such as this that i started this post on food and grocery board.. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3020758
Im fortunate and have discovered a farm less than 10.miles from me who rear 100%,365 days of the year "free range" Aberdeen Angus at prices i can afford www.damnedelicious.co.uk,, there was another great bircham foods,selling reasonably priced organic meat but their site seems to be unavalable at the moment.
I buy organic milk from the supermarket(only place i can get it),is it safe to assume that organic milk is from cows allowed out to eat grass,wander freely and "chew the cud"
Totaly agree with Furball,this is a barbaric backward step.

lostinrates

cooking-mama wrote: »

,is it safe to assume that organic milk is from cows allowed out to eat grass,wander freely and "chew the cud"

Chewing the cud they'll do whereever they are, in or out, but no, organic cows may also be housed over winter. In fact, all the organic herds I know in my corner of the world are, including the ones next door to me. As I said this is is not necessarily heinous.

Beef cattle are maginally more likely to be turned out. airy cows have to come in twice a day when out, the damage this can cause in wet weather is not to be overlooked, and neither is tramping through mud particularly lovely or healthy for the cows! Where possible, its nice, but its not possible at the rate we use, and more importantly WASTE dairy products or at the rate many farmers receive per pint.

It occurs to me that, for those of us in Agriculture or agriculture related industries, or indeed smallholders this IS oldstyle! Its more relevant to my OS life for example, than many other discussions which are valuable to other OSers.

eta: its also worth pointing out that not all farmers are rich four by four owning stereotypes. In fact, the less well off farmers are suffereing more with lots of council farms being sold of due to LA cuts. some of these, too, are organic and well managed herds.

RAS

I do not know whether the people planning these mega sheds use imported dairy men, but one of the other problems with intensive dairying is the abuse of humans.

There was a big story last year about Indonesian dairy technician graduates being brought into the UK and working in the most horrendous conditions. Because they were graduates, they met a lot of the UKBA requirements and it looks like the degrees may have been set up specifically for that purpose.

Not unlike overseas nurses 10 years ago, these immigrants reported working conditions that would never be accepted by UK workers. As part of their contract they had signed away their rights under the EU Working Time Directive. They were getting up in the early hours and getting to bed at 10pm, with about 5 hours a night sleep. The split shifts allowed them to get a couple of hours more kip in the middle of the day but many did not live close enough to their accomodation to go to bed during that time. UK employers were replacing two contract diarymen with one Indonesian worker.

They often had one day a week off and living in rural areas had no easy way to access goods, services or advice on their employment contracts.

I do not usually subscribe to the idea that jobs should be protected for UK workers but this scheme (most of the workers appeared to be educated by and imported by a very limited number of agents) seemed to damage the local rural economies and the immigrant workers health and well-being. Yes, it kept the cost of milk down but at what cost.

[Deleted User]

RAS wrote: »

I do not know whether the people planning these mega sheds use imported dairy men, but one of the other problems with intensive dairying is the abuse of humans.

There was a big story last year about Indonesian dairy technician graduates being brought into the UK and working in the most horrendous conditions. Because they were graduates, they met a lot of the UKBA requirements and it looks like the degrees may have been set up specifically for that purpose.

Not unlike overseas nurses 10 years ago, these immigrants reported working conditions that would never be accepted by UK workers. As part of their contract they had signed away their rights under the EU Working Time Directive. They were getting up in the early hours and getting to bed at 10pm, with about 5 hours a night sleep. The split shifts allowed them to get a couple of hours more kip in the middle of the day but many did not live close enough to their accomodation to go to bed during that time. UK employers were replacing two contract diarymen with one Indonesian worker.

They often had one day a week off and living in rural areas had no easy way to access goods, services or advice on their employment contracts.

I do not usually subscribe to the idea that jobs should be protected for UK workers but this scheme (most of the workers appeared to be educated by and imported by a very limited number of agents) seemed to damage the local rural economies and the immigrant workers health and well-being. Yes, it kept the cost of milk down but at what cost.

Very good point. We see this more and more recently. Humans matter and Animals matter. It seems like the economic downturn is a good excuse for human abuse too!

moonrakerz

Most of the posts on this subject are a bit short on facts as well as completely missing the point of what is going on.

I was raised on a farm, where the cows used to "gambol" in the fields all the year - just like on the Anchor butter TV ads.
Except it wasn't like that, in winter the cows were up to their bellies in thick glutinous mud where they had to be driven in and out of the milking sheds twice a day for milking.
Then the "evil" farmer built a huge shed with a roof on it, with straw on the floor and tons of food piled up alongside of it - and the "poor" mistreated cows were made to spend the winter in the warm and the dry !!!! And - there are no nice furry badgers in the shed to pass TB onto the cows.

Why are these huge milk mega factories being proposed ?
Because Mr Tesco, Adsa, Morrison want to buy their milk at the cheapest possible price.
Why do they want to do this ?
Because 98% percent of the British shoppers don't give a damn' about the cows or the farmers - all they want is to buy 4 pints of milk for 99p. Get them in to your store to buy the milk and they will then buy lots of other goodies.
When all the conventional milk producers have been driven to bankruptcy, all that will be left are the "factories" - until Mr Tesco sees that the "factory" milk is cheaper if he ships it in from Poland or Croatia - which is happening already !

Unfortunately, the dewy eyed animal loving fraternity are missing where they should aiming their arrows of condemnation. The bottom line is that the British Public are to blame - NO ONE else ! :mad:

Auntie-Dolly

I don't think that is entirely true or fair. I have never asked the supermarket for cheaper milk - you just buy it a the price it is. I don't change where I shop to whoever has the cheapest milk.
The average man in the street has no idea about food production and more information is not a bad thing. It should be the responsibility of everyone involved in food production, from the farmer to the retailer, to protect the welfare of the animals. Once the conditions in battery farms became common knowledge legislation was soon introduced to improve the lot if the hens. I just wouldn't want to see dairy farming go the same way. The poor cows suffering with mastitis and lameness due to their enormous udders is shocking. The slaughter of days old bull calves as they are of no use is worse.
Personally, I think the big supermarkets have gone too far; screwing the farmers and the shoppers and making millions out of both. The only thing a supermarket ever made was money.

I don't know what the answer is. A growing population will put huge demands on our our food producers, but we must be aware of where the food comes from and try not to put price before everything else.

moonrakerz

Auntie-Dolly wrote: »

I don't think that is entirely true or fair. I have never asked the supermarket for cheaper milk - you just buy it a the price it is.

You may not have "asked the supermarket for cheaper milk", but please don't tell me that you have never gone into a particular store because you have seen/heard that their milk is the cheapest in town ! If you do, I'll be generous and assume you are one of the 2%

Could I ask you to look at the supermarket ads and see how often milk appears as one of the top items ? Look at the posters in the windows.
How about this too ?
"Supermarkets have slashed the price of milk to half the cost of bottled water in a move that has been condemned by farmers.

Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Asda and Morrisons are all offering eight pints of milk for £2, equivalent to 25p a pint or 44p a litre.

At the same time, they are selling popular brands of water, such as Highland Spring, for 50p a pint or 88p a litre."

Just because it was in the Daily Mail doesn't mean that it isn't true !

It is a fact that Milk is used by ALL the supermarket chains as a "loss leader" - just to get people in the door.........

I hate to say this but all the "nasties" you cite (quite correctly) about cattle are caused by the public's insatiable demand for cheaper and cheaper milk.
The supermarkets are only too happy to provide that - "come into my parlour, said the spider to the fly".