Employment contract?

SarEl

RossDave10 wrote: »

This is an online forum, people can be what ever they want to be...

Of course they can - is that why you are being an ungrateful jerk?

Nobody asked you to post to a public forum, nobody is forcing you to take the advice, and nobody asked you to waste our time by being very ungracious when given advice. If you wish to only recieve the advice you want, as opposed to the correct advice, it would be very helpful if, in future, you can let us know what answers will be accepted - then we won't waste our time responding at all.

Personally I wouldn't advise ACAS or CAB because, as many posters here will know already - they frequently get it wrong! The consequence of laying out demands to your employer based on incorrect advice will no doubt be rather swift and decisive, no doubt entailing a sudden loss of any overtime, and, the first time you take a wrong step, your job. But please, be my guest and get "better advice" - you have been warned what could happen, and supermarkets are not generally known for their staff - tolerant attitudes

Mudd14

SarEl wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't advise ACAS or CAB because, as many posters here will know already - they frequently get it wrong!

oh yes!

Poser, I will third the FACTS given here. There is no legal requirement to offer you anything else than what you have.

A question for SarEl, with repspect to holiday, if an employee has an 8 hour contract but constantly works overtime way above the standard contracted hours suerly holiday pay should ba calculated on the full hours not just 8? It would be dificult to prove that it should be on 8 hours if the individual has never worked the minimum and constantly works over 30?

no-oneknowsme

Mudd14 wrote: »

oh yes!

Poser, I will third the FACTS given here. There is no legal requirement to offer you anything else than what you have.

A question for SarEl, with repspect to holiday, if an employee has an 8 hour contract but constantly works overtime way above the standard contracted hours suerly holiday pay should ba calculated on the full hours not just 8? It would be dificult to prove that it should be on 8 hours if the individual has never worked the minimum and constantly works over 30?

Holiday pay will be calculated on the numbers of hours you are contracted to work...not how many hours you have worked in the weeks/months prior. If your contracted for 8 hours then your holiday entitlment will be calculated on that.

no-oneknowsme

RossDave10 wrote: »

This is an online forum, people can be what ever they want to be...

So , if lazydaisy and SarEL had posted that you were entitled to this that or the other from your employer then you would have believed them then ?

If they told you information which was in you favour then you would have believed them then ? You wouldnt have questioned their profession then would you ?

Your post justs makes you sound childish and un-greatful for the (sound) advice you have received

SarEl

Mudd14 wrote: »

A question for SarEl, with repspect to holiday, if an employee has an 8 hour contract but constantly works overtime way above the standard contracted hours suerly holiday pay should ba calculated on the full hours not just 8? It would be dificult to prove that it should be on 8 hours if the individual has never worked the minimum and constantly works over 30?

No - that is actually the question that we were answering, since, despite assertions to the contrray, it was what the OP asked (in this thread). It would be easy to prove that the individual is on 8 hours if the employer has issued a written statement of main particulars, as they are required to do by law.

However, if the employer has not given out the written particulars then yes, I tend to think that a tribunal would view this as a variable hours contract within their powers to define the terms of a contract, in the absence of evidence to the contrary - and in that case would calculate leave based on hours worked.

But that is a theoretical answer to a theoretical question - if you are asking because of a real situation, please give the details of the actual case, because the devil is always in the detail!

zzzLazyDaisy

Mudd14 wrote: »

A question for SarEl, with repspect to holiday, if an employee has an 8 hour contract but constantly works overtime way above the standard contracted hours suerly holiday pay should ba calculated on the full hours not just 8? It would be dificult to prove that it should be on 8 hours if the individual has never worked the minimum and constantly works over 30?

Put simply - in general terms overtime is not taken into account when calculating holiday pay, so in your scenario holiday pay would be calculated on an 8 hour contract, regardless of the overtime worked.

If the contract is a variable hours contract, or if you have no written contract but regularly work different hours from week to week, or if overtime is guaranteed and compulsory, then the correct calculation would be by reference to the wages earned over the last 12 weeks worked.

More info on over-time here (scroll down for holidays)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10028439

Pont

Very interesting. Are you saying?

If, as an employer, I took on 100 people at £10ph (each having a 8 hour contract), but each, over say 10 years, had in reality worked 40 hours per week, I would only have to pay them £80pw holiday pay instead of their usual worked hours of £400pw?

Also, due to the economic climate, as times are now bad I could revert to their 8 hour weekly contracts (after 10 years) without any redress?

If this is the case then I don't see why every employer doesn't offer short hour contracts (5, 8, 10 hours etc) as opposed to full-time contracts of 37, 40 hours etc). In the scenario above the total employee holiday wage bill per week would be £8000 (£80 X 100) as opposed to £40,000 (£400 X 100). Times each by 5 weeks, £40,000/£200,000 - nice saving!

Whilst I can understand it wouldn't be very clever of an employee under this contract of employment to make any radical changes in their lifestyle/expenses etc in the short term, surely after a certain length of time (2, 3, 4 years) they could make financial plans based on their 'usual' salary rather than their contracted salary.

Wouldn't mutuality of obligation exist after a certain time period?

zzzLazyDaisy

Pont wrote: »

Wouldn't mutuality of obligation exist after a certain time period?

No, and that is exactly the point - there is no mutuality of obligation.

The employer does not have to offer over-time, and the employee does not have to work any more than his or her minimum contracted hours, unless they choose to do so.

It would be different if (say) the employee has worked those extra hours for years AND has no choice in the matter - in other words if the extra hours are compulsory and have been worked for some time, there may well be an argument that the contract has been varied by the parties conduct. In that case the contractual hours would be the hours actually worked, rather than the hours stipulated in the written particulars.

But that is a very different scenario from the employee who is contracted to work one day a week, but regularly chooses to work over-time if/when offered, even though he is under no obligation to do so - which appears to be OP's position.

Mudd14

Interesting, thank you.

SarEl my point was not actual but a theoritical approach based on what 'Pont' has pointed out.

An employer could try and get around a large holiday bill by issuing contracts at 8 hours and making them work 30 hours but only pay holiday on the 8 hours avoiding a large holiday liability.

But, as LazyDaisy has pointed out ti will come down to mutuality. If the employer made it compulsory then then a tribunal would take a view that the hours were variable and holiday would be due (and back dated) on those hours. As long as a claim was raised I suppose?

RossDave10

SarEl wrote: »

Of course they can - is that why you are being an ungrateful jerk?

Nobody asked you to post to a public forum, nobody is forcing you to take the advice, and nobody asked you to waste our time by being very ungracious when given advice. If you wish to only recieve the advice you want, as opposed to the correct advice, it would be very helpful if, in future, you can let us know what answers will be accepted - then we won't waste our time responding at all.

Personally I wouldn't advise ACAS or CAB because, as many posters here will know already - they frequently get it wrong! The consequence of laying out demands to your employer based on incorrect advice will no doubt be rather swift and decisive, no doubt entailing a sudden loss of any overtime, and, the first time you take a wrong step, your job. But please, be my guest and get "better advice" - you have been warned what could happen, and supermarkets are not generally known for their staff - tolerant attitudes

Jerk? We are in the UK here, no USA..

If I was to go into my firms HR and ask for a contract increase, and say what I believe to be true, I don't see how this would lead to me losing my job?

You seem to have a very uprated attitude, it seems as though you don't know very much about this subject, but are instead, repeating what others are saying..