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Postpone some of the cuts?

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Comments

  • StevieJ
    StevieJ Posts: 20,174 Forumite
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    IronWolf wrote: »
    Wait one sec, the graph actually says net debt, rather than debt. So does net not mean the same things for nations as it does for businesses?

    The figures include and I quote from National Statistics 'financial liabilities minus liquid assets, it excludes illiquid assets which include lending to business, mortgages and corporate bonds'

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/crbslbg0111.pdf
    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
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    edited 4 February 2011 at 2:09PM
    IronWolf wrote: »
    Wait one sec, the graph actually says net debt, rather than debt. So does net not mean the same things for nations as it does for businesses?

    Correct. National accounting (accountancy for Governments) doesn't include the asset side when a business is taken on to the books and the 'contingent liability' (the maximum likely loss) is added to the debt.

    I'm not an expert but that's how I understand it.

    When a Government talks about net debt they mean debt minus cash and near cash (liquid assets like bonds) held.

    An example would be Australia a few years ago. The Aussie Government had a net debt of 0. It had a gross debt of about 15-20% of GDP with the money raised just being held as cash in the Government's bank account. For boring technical reasons it is helpful to have some Government debt.
  • StevieJ
    StevieJ Posts: 20,174 Forumite
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    Generali wrote: »

    Of course, while on the subject of things being unaccounted for in the books of the Government, the state and civil service pensions are liabilities that the Government doesn't account for, rather worryingly because they say that they can just renegue on the promise to pay. Those liabilities are vastly bigger than the liabilities of the banks.

    Quite happy for them to be included in the national accounts as long as the relevant anticipated revenue streams, to pay for it are also included (N.I.receipts?) . There are all sorts of things we could include that are going to be expensed in the future, social security payments, MP's wages upkeep of govt buildings etc.
    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
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    StevieJ wrote: »
    If you wish to include the debts of organisations that will be floated at a profit in the not to distant future,

    By the time the restructuring of RBS is complete it's going to be a shadow of the bank it was ( i.e. World's No 1). So i wouldn't get overly excited over a huge increase in value.

    NRAM ( including B&B) hasn't been a profitable investment for the taxpayer so far, having accumalated losses to date.
  • StevieJ
    StevieJ Posts: 20,174 Forumite
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    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    By the time the restructuring of RBS is complete it's going to be a shadow of the bank it was ( i.e. World's No 1). So i wouldn't get overly excited over a huge increase in value.

    NRAM ( including B&B) hasn't been a profitable investment for the taxpayer so far, having accumalated losses to date.

    So down to brass tackies, you are saying that overall we are not expected to make a profit out of the banks?
    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    StevieJ wrote: »
    The figures include and I quote from National Statistics 'financial liabilities minus liquid assets, it excludes illiquid assets which include lending to business, mortgages and corporate bonds'

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/crbslbg0111.pdf

    Other illiquid assets will include much of what Government does with capital spending like building roads and hospitals which could (and in many cases do) provide an income stream so act like business assets.

    Still I don't pretend to understand accountancy except in the very simplest terms.
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
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    StevieJ wrote: »
    So down to brass tackies, you are saying that overall we are not expected to make a profit out of the banks?

    Current price of RBS is around 43p as opposed to paid price of 50.2p.

    Price has recently fallen on news that placing of shares may start next year with institutional investors.

    Placing with institutions is often done at discount to market price as no underwriting of issue is required.
  • StevieJ
    StevieJ Posts: 20,174 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Thrugelmir wrote: »
    Current price of RBS is around 43p as opposed to paid price of 50.2p.

    Price has recently fallen on news that placing of shares may start next year with institutional investors.

    Placing with institutions is often done at discount to market price as no underwriting of issue is required.

    These shares will not be sold at a loss.
    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher
  • IronWolf
    IronWolf Posts: 6,445 Forumite
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    StevieJ wrote: »
    These shares will not be sold at a loss.

    I dunno about that, put Gordon in charge of it and we'll see another gold fiasco :p
    Faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
  • Thrugelmir
    Thrugelmir Posts: 89,546 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    StevieJ wrote: »
    These shares will not be sold at a loss.


    What makes you think that?

    No institution is going to pay more for a share than its current market value. Share placings are often make at significant discount to make the offer a success.
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