MSE News: How to avoid duping by VAT fraudsters

ZTD

mustrum_ridcully wrote: »

Did you even read the article (or listen to Money Box)?

In case you didn't... One part was about companies who aren't VAT registered charging people VAT and this extra money is then pocketed. As an example, you get a gardener in to do some work and instead of paying £500 you pay £600 because "they have to charge VAT".

No, instead of paying £600 you pay £600. Total difference to you £0. It's the government who loses out when they don't pay the VAT to the government - the consumer pays *exactly* the same either way.

corbyboy

ZTD wrote: »

No, instead of paying £600 you pay £600. Total difference to you £0. It's the government who loses out when they don't pay the VAT to the government - the consumer pays *exactly* the same either way.

I was actually going to post something similar to you earlier but backed out as I expected to get slated.

As a consumer all I am interested in is the final price.

When I take my car to the garage and they quote me "£300 plus VAT" my reply is "not interested in that. How much money do I need to hand over to you?" It honestly drives me crazy when I get given a price that doesn't include VAT.

As ZTD says in the gardener example, I am paying them £600. Why should I care if some of this is VAT or not? Whether they are charging VAT or not, I am still parting with the same amount of cash.

If VAT is a transaction between the business and the Government then why should I get involved?

Former_MSE_Guy

That made me smile as that was the same company I used to test the service. Great minds think alike, eh? ;-)

Debt_Free_Dreamer wrote: »

Yep... Here is Argos

Yes, valid VAT number
VAT number GB 145899025 Member State GB Name ARGOS LIMITED Address TAX & TREASURY DEPT
AVEBURY
489-499 AVEBURY BOULEVARD
CENTRAL MILTON KEYNES

MK9 2NW Consultation Number Date when request received 24/01/2011 (dd/mm/yyyy)

Percy1983

ZTD wrote: »

No, instead of paying £600 you pay £600. Total difference to you £0. It's the government who loses out when they don't pay the VAT to the government - the consumer pays *exactly* the same either way.

As they aren't paying VAT yet charging you, you are being ripped off by £100.

If they aren't paying the VAT over I am not paying the VAT to them.

Former_MSE_Guy

On a personal note, this made me laugh.

To suggest we are under pressure from the Government to print articles that fits its agenda is about as wide of the mark as you can get.

If we had thinner skin we may even see it as insulting to our journalistic integrity but we can take it here .

All we are trying to do is warn about a fraud that is not always obvious and that catches some people out.

ZTD wrote: »

So remember kids, VAT is money owed by a business to the government, and not actually much to do with you, the consumer, except it makes your prices higher. As does NI, income tax, corporation tax, landfill duty tax etc etc...

You, as a good and loyal subject of the crown, should spend your time and your effort to spot businesses not paying VAT because the government wants you to. This message was brought to you by MSE.

If you don't the government will go home crying to its mum.

Now, I expect this "public service announcement" twaddle from the BBC, who are after all, a tax-fuelled propaganda machine. I don't expect it from a nominally independent MoneySavingExpert. But then again, if you're pushing your agenda such as financial education into the political arena, you've got to expect to have an agenda pushed back in a "mutual back scratching" exercise.

There's a price to be paid for everything.

Stephen_Leak

The bit I like is that the fraudster charges you false VAT, effectively stealing that money from you, but then has to pay it back - to the government.

I think I know who the bigger fraudster might be.

ZTD

Percy1983 wrote: »

As they aren't paying VAT yet charging you, you are being ripped off by £100.

You're not being ripped off. You're getting exactly the same goods/services for exactly the same money. It is the government who is getting ripped off.

Now if you're thinking "If they're not paying the VAT on VAT rated goods, then I want some money back", then instead of the headline being "How to avoid duping by VAT fraudsters", it should be "How to ensure you're always given the opportunity to participate in a conspiracy to defraud HM Revenue and Customs."

Which although more accurate, isn't quite as snappy.

ZTD

MSE_Guy wrote: »

On a personal note, this made me laugh.

To suggest we are under pressure from the Government to print articles that fits its agenda is about as wide of the mark as you can get.

If we had thinner skin we may even see it as insulting to our journalistic integrity but we can take it here .

Journalism is not about repeating the words some politico has spoken on an issue the government of the day has decided is important. That's PR.

Journalism is about creating your own story and bringing facts to the attention of the public that were not on anyone's radar. Watergate was journalism (for example). Telling people to take their flu jabs, wash behind both ears and pay their taxes is just PR.

MSE_Guy wrote: »

All we are trying to do is warn about a fraud that is not always obvious and that catches some people out.

Not paying VAT only catches one entity out, the only entity that eligible to receive it: The government. The government is not a people.

And to claim that if the government doesn't receive a tax from an company you've had a commercial transaction with, then you've been duped is as silly as it sounds. If that company pays half the VAT, does that mean you been half-duped? Or perhaps you can claim your transaction was paid over properly and you're un-duped, but the guy after you had all his VAT retained, so he's fully-duped.

As I said. A silly concept.

Percy1983

I would feel ripped off, in short if they are going to avoid the VAT then I want my cut.

Either way, if they are charging you full and not handing it over why not report them? the more money the government gets from VAT the less they need to charge us working people.

EtheAv8r

ZTD wrote: »

You're not being ripped off. You're getting exactly the same goods/services for exactly the same money. It is the government who is getting ripped off.

Now if you're thinking "If they're not paying the VAT on VAT rated goods, then I want some money back", then instead of the headline being "How to avoid duping by VAT fraudsters", it should be "How to ensure you're always given the opportunity to participate in a conspiracy to defraud HM Revenue and Customs."

Which although more accurate, isn't quite as snappy.

No I disagree, it is the customer that is being ripped off, not the Government. The job is for £500 + VAT, the VAT is being charged to the customer but is being pocketed (theft) by the supplier. The customer is therefor effectively being charged £600 for the job rather than the quoted £500.

If the Government gets ripped off - that effectively is still you as the money they raise they spend on services to you, if there is less money raised, there is less service to you.

Your argument is like the "I bought a £600 TV in the sale for £500, so what shall I spend the £100 I 'saved' on? £100 was not saved, rather £500 was spent.