Opinions Please - Angry Phonecall to Ex Assistant

Emmzi

The assistant starts a training period, but is not a contracted employee.


That doesn't make sense to me.

And I don't think you will get a realistic view of your prospects at ET unless you are prepared to stop dancing about and talkk in plain English. I think you'd be better off asking your solicitor...

bluetownbarry

Emmzi wrote: »

The assistant starts a training period, but is not a contracted employee.


That doesn't make sense to me.

And I don't think you will get a realistic view of your prospects at ET unless you are prepared to stop dancing about and talkk in plain English. I think you'd be better off asking your solicitor...

Agreed. If you look on the OP's other posts, you get slightly more information.

I can understand the OP's reticence in supplying more detail for fear of being identified, but if he wants any constructive advice, he needs to get over this.

zzzLazyDaisy

It is very common for disciplinary procedures to include, as an example of gross misconduct, 'conduct likely to bring the company into disrepute'.

Even if this is not expressly included, depending on what was said in the phone call, it is still entirely possible that the employer may have come to the conclusion that this was bullying and/or inappropriate conduct by a senior manager sufficient to amount to gross misconduct (we don't have the full facts, and since only the tribunal will hear all the evidence from both sides, it is impossible to guess at the outcome).

What you do need to understand is that the tribunal cannot substitute its own decision for that of the employer. All it can do is decide whether the decision to dismiss falls within the band of reasonable responses by the employer , bearing in mind the facts of the case, including the reason for the dismissal and the procedures followed.

In my view, on the information available to us, there is a reasonable prospect that the employer will be found to have acted reasonably. NOTE: this does not mean that OP has no chance of winning, but that, on the face of it, the employer's conduct wasn't necessarily unfair (within an employment law definition of unfairness).

Edited to say that even if OP wins his case, the ET has the power to reduce the award proportionally to reflect any contributory conduct by the dismissed employee.

November5th

This is where it gets difficult. The MD's behaviour was erratic, irrational and bizarre all the time, and became increasingly screamingly aggressive (appallingly so).
My previous assistant left because of this. I fully supported her decision, he was unbearable and there was nothing to be done. I planned to stick it out just a few more months.
All the problems and accusations start from the date of her resignation, it seems he was going to fire me, no matter what. Her resignation was a real slap to his ego.

However, the MD being as mad as a box of frogs and a serial bully may not matter at the tribunal.

It was the MD who told me what was said by the ex assistant, (don't think I will ever know the truth of what really was said in that meeting), he provided the information that pushed me to the angry phonecall, he caused the nasty situation. I merely took the bait. I have zero history of angry work calls.

The call is angry but a little more plaintive than you might think - I was still looking for an explanation. Had I no right to be angry, was it that unreasonable?

I just thought that the pages of lies that I have disproved would count for more.

getmore4less

How many of these other issues were being discussed before this phone call.

If someone is having difficulties with their employer seems a bit silly to do something like this, head above parapit comes to mind.

zzzLazyDaisy

November5th wrote: »

The senior manager is fired for gross misconduct based on this recorded voice message alone.

Just to be clear.

1 Did the employer have a meeting with you before making the decision to dismiss, and were you informed of your right to be accompanied at the meeting?

2 Did the employer confirm your dismissal in writing?

3 What was the reason given for the dismissal (you state in your OP that you were dismissed for the phone call alone, so I'm confused about the relevance of the other matters you refer to)

4 Were you informed of your right to appeal the decision (although given that you were a senior manager and the decision to dismiss was taken by the MD, it might be that there was no-one more senior to appeal to)

5 Did the company have a written disciplinary procedure, and was it followed in your case?

November5th

getmore4less wrote: »

How many of these other issues were being discussed before this phone call.

If someone is having difficulties with their employer seems a bit silly to do something like this, head above parapit comes to mind.

None, the MD was singing my praises to all and sundry, I have an audio recording of him doing it. (I was recording meetings due to the aggressive behaviour). It was all shockingly sudden, turning round in just less than a month. He stored up accusations without telling me for weeks.
I was never invited to discuss things.
I was also hardly in the office at the time (which killed half their allegations stone dead).

Yes, it did feel schizophrenic.

November5th

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Just to be clear.

1 Did the employer have a meeting with you before making the decision to dismiss, and were you informed of your right to be accompanied at the meeting?

2 Did the employer confirm your dismissal in writing?

3 What was the reason given for the dismissal (you state in your OP that you were dismissed for the phone call alone, so I'm confused about the relevance of the other matters you refer to)

4 Were you informed of your right to appeal the decision (although given that you were a senior manager and the decision to dismiss was taken by the MD, it might be that there was no-one more senior to appeal to)

5 Did the company have a written disciplinary procedure, and was it followed in your case?

1. No
2. I was dismissed at a disciplinary hearing that occurred with no attendees (only MD present) and without my knowledge, being handed that dismissal days later without discussion.
3. Three allegations one of which is the phonecall. The others were easily disproved statements about my behaviour in the office. (the thirty or so other allegations came after we had our tribunal date, also now disproved).
4. The appeal info was on the dismissal letter, my appeal was ignored for seven months, and then was held with a clearly foregone conclusion, as they ignored my evidence.
5. The disciplinary procedure laid down was not followed in any way.

zzzLazyDaisy

On the basis of your reply, your best approach may be unfair dismissal on the basis of procedural unfairness.

I have also now read your other post and am confused to read that the person who was formally your assistant, was appointed to your position before you were dismissed. This mist have been a relatively short time period given that you phoned the person shortly after s/he left, and was then dismissed as a result. Also this is the same person who worked for the company for only 6 months, and who criticised the whole company from the MD down on leaving?

However, if it is indeed accepted by the tribunal that this person was offered you position before the meeting at which you were dismissed, this would also support your allegation of procedural unfairness, in that the decision had been made before the meeting and your replacement appointed, and therefore the company failed not only failed to follow its own procedures, but in fact failed to follow any proper procedures at all.

There still remains the issue of contributory conduct and a potential reduction in compensation (which can be reduced to nil) but that issue can only be decided by the tribunal on the day, having heard all the evidence, and having taken a decision on the facts.

DVardysShadow

November5th wrote: »

1. No
2. I was dismissed at a disciplinary hearing that occurred with no attendees (only MD present) and without my knowledge, being handed that dismissal days later without discussion.
3. Three allegations one of which is the phonecall. The others were easily disproved statements about my behaviour in the office. (the thirty or so other allegations came after we had our tribunal date, also now disproved).
4. The appeal info was on the dismissal letter, my appeal was ignored for seven months, and then was held with a clearly foregone conclusion, as they ignored my evidence.
5. The disciplinary procedure laid down was not followed in any way.

Without picking the above apart very carefully, it does look like you could drive a coach and horses through the procedure and win your case on procedural inadequacies.

But beware of winning the battle and losing the war ...

November5th wrote: »

This is where it gets difficult. The MD's behaviour was erratic, irrational and bizarre all the time, and became increasingly screamingly aggressive (appallingly so).
My previous assistant left because of this. I fully supported her decision, he was unbearable and there was nothing to be done. I planned to stick it out just a few more months.
All the problems and accusations start from the date of her resignation, it seems he was going to fire me, no matter what. Her resignation was a real slap to his ego.

However, the MD being as mad as a box of frogs and a serial bully may not matter at the tribunal.

It was the MD who told me what was said by the ex assistant, (don't think I will ever know the truth of what really was said in that meeting), he provided the information that pushed me to the angry phonecall, he caused the nasty situation. I merely took the bait. I have zero history of angry work calls.

The call is angry but a little more plaintive than you might think - I was still looking for an explanation. Had I no right to be angry, was it that unreasonable?

I just thought that the pages of lies that I have disproved would count for more.

So your assistant left and you agreed with this. But then you invited an acquaintance-friend of 6 months to take the position. So were you encouraging your former assistant out to make way for your acquaintance-friend? Did your acquaintance-friend justifiably take exception to you getting them a job once they discovered that it was a poisoned chalice? There is enough not hanging together here, that I can see that conflict was almost certainly inevitable - but not enough to really grasp much of the dynamic of the situation.

Except for one thing. You dislike the MD and he did not like someone in your position disliking him. And you handed him an opportunity on a plate. And he took it with both hands, but in his eagerness to get shot of you, he made a total mess up of his procedures.

Now, do the decent predictable thing and tell me it was not like that at all.

Plainly you could win or lose the case - and if you are clever, I think your best chance is to win it on MD's failure to use due process and the more you can draw attention to this than to the underlying issues, the better your chances. I don't know what range of rulings an ET can make. But the ruling I would be looking for is for you to win your case and have reinstatement without compensation. I think your MD, you and the new assistant will probably do as good a job together as a sack full of squirrels.